Intolerant of intolerance?

[KnowingLaughter]

Hello fellow Sapiens, large and small.

Recently through a project I was forced into spending an evening with a racist homophobe. I tried to reason with him when he bought up his views but he was completely incorrigible. I found myself really struggling to deal with him without adopting an attitude of complete intolerance for him and his opinions*. Ironic huh?

It made me think about my own feelings, and I feel that I hate people who hate people for such ridiculous or arbitrary reasons and those feelings are very strong. What I think is different though, I think that he should be free to hold his views and even express them. I believe in freedom of speech very strongly. If he doesn't express those views then people would not know he harboured them, and wouldn't be able to point out his stupidity or steer clear of him.

What I wanted to know was how you guys reconcile opposing feelings that people shouldn't hold a view, at the same time as thinking that it is their right to do so.

Secondly I was hoping for some advice on how to deal with these types without becoming angry to the point of aggression, and losing the integrity of my argument by resorting to insults. I don't want to become what I fear, but those feelings of contempt were so strong I didn't know how to deal with them rationally. I didn't physically act on that aggression, but it is the closest I have been since I was an angry teenager and that made me ashamed and uncomfortable.

Has anyone else here been in such a situation?

Any advice or thoughts would be appreciated.

* (I should add that he was extremely venomous and vocal about his views and just wouldn't drop the subjects of race or homosexuality once I made it clear his views were distasteful to me.)

 

[australopithecus]

What I wanted to know was how you guys reconcile opposing feelings that people shouldn't hold a view, at the same time as thinking that it is their right to do so.

There's nothing to reconcile, you can acknowledge and even support someones right to think/do/say something while completely finding that thing abhorrent.

 

[KnowingLaughter]

There's nothing to reconcile, you can acknowledge and even support someones right to think/do/say something while completely finding that thing abhorrent.

Well I do, and I totally agree with that statement, but that as a principle is easier written on paper than practiced in front of someone who repeatedly asserts that you are a disgrace for having a homosexual friend and does so aggressively. It doesn't stop me from doing the above, but it feels bad.

At first it was easy to dismiss his views but after a couple of hours and a gradually more heated and personal discussion his preaching was really getting to me. If I could have walked away I would have, if he would have shut up about it I could have ignored him but he made it his aim to get to me, and it started to work - something I want to make sure does not happen again.

I do still support his rights to those views, but I find that hard to cope with my feelings as I care greatly for my friends, one of whom he was directly referring to and it hurt to hear him speak about them that way, insistently, to my face. This is how I reconciled it in my head:

"If he doesn't express those views then people would not know he harboured them, and wouldn't be able to point out his stupidity or steer clear of him."

I was wondering how others placate their feelings, while acting upon their contrary beliefs, whether by similar rationalisations or something else.

I ask because acting on my beliefs comes easily to me, but that doesn't stop me from feeling bad afterwards. The thoughts are easy but how do you make it feel right?

I apologise because I have probably worded the whole thing terribly, I am very tired but waiting for some files to convert and threw this out for some opinion while it was on my mind.

 

[lrkun]

What I wanted to know was how you guys reconcile opposing feelings that people shouldn't hold a view, at the same time as thinking that it is their right to do so.

It is not easy to change another's point of view. Especially when it is within the very essense of his or her core beliefs. The general rule on the matter is do not try to change their belief. The exception is when he or she asks you to give your own opinion on the matter.

The following are my guidelines in such a case:

1. Respect his or her opinion.

2. Ask his or her reason for such

3. Ask him or her to make an alternative.

4. Ask him or her if you can state your opinion on the matter.

5. Never force your opinion on him or her.

 

[KnowingLaughter]

Thanks for the responses guys,

I feel I have expressed this whole thing terribly and not emphasised my points correctly. This is a question about emotion rather than how to convince him he is wrong.

I do not want to force my opinion on to him, he continued to press the issues which is why the conversation continued to upset me. The awkwardness and conflict I felt was as follows.

I was supporting his right to his beliefs as I know it is the right thing to do. However much I knew I was acting on principle it didn't stop me from feeling like I was letting my friend down in the process, and turning a blind eye to cruelty against him.

I totally appreciate the logical arguments, and agree with them 100%, but my focus was specifically on how to make it feel right - in an emotional sense - to respect his attacks on people I care for. I have never previously been subjected to my thoughts and feelings pulling so strongly in opposite directions.

It's like supporting someone's right to be a verbal bully, it may well be right in principle and the thing to do, but how do you not feel terrible for the bullies potential victims as a result of that support?

I act on my thoughts and not my emotions, as emotional creatures I think we get ourselves in to a lot of trouble. Even though I do so, it doesn't stop those emotions from being there and that was the thing I was hoping to understand - how others deal with feeling bad, whilst knowing what they did was right. Rationalise? Dismiss? Do something to make them feel good again? Those kinds of things.

The second point was that I usually try to laugh at such things and respond calmly, but over the evening he was grinding me down and I felt I was losing my composure to deal with him rationally and suppress my own feelings. My friend has suggested that I try pausing and focusing on a few deep breaths before responding, an idea I will try. Another friend jokingly suggested that I should try to think of as many vegetables as possible while he spoke, one I probably will not. I was wondering how others cope in such a situation. I am not a saint and can only take so much before my emotions cloud my ability to act entirely rationally, but that is not to say I wouldn't like to learn some techniques for suppressing that.

 

[ImprobableJoe]

You should stop getting locked in jail cells with racists. Problem solved!

 

[KnowingLaughter]

:lol: I needed a laugh thanks!

 

[Andiferous]

I understand completely what you mean.

When it is inappropriate to address it directly, or if doing so seems pointless at the time for whatever reason, I just sit there and stew, myself. More often than not I try to redirect the conversation and watch the clock for when I never have to deal with that person again.

I somehow doubt the effectiveness of butting horns against a stubborn person of that ilk. If I have said it once, I won't bother repeating myself.

It's okay to not like people.

 

[Giliell]

Well, I hold the view that some things aren't so much opinions as they are crimes.
I don't tolerate people and views that want to degrate other people to second class human beings.
That's what us "liberals" and "lefties" are being accused of, isn't it? To treat every view and idea as valid and acceptable or excusable.
Well, I don't. Taking as a basis something like the UN declaration of human rights or the human rights articles of the constitution, I consider views and movements that want to revoke them to be outside the marketplace of ideas.
We can argue about whether private gub-ownership is a good thing and should be allowed or not, but we can't argue about whether it should be allowed to shoot somebody dead because they're gay/black/white/male/female/muslim/christian/atheist.
Except of course in the case of the city of York, bows and arrows and Scotsmen

 

[televator]

Whatever the approach, I think in this situation not saying anything to oppose him is worse. I think it's the crazier/dangerous beliefs out there that merit more immediate challenge -- if only to set an example. While this speech is allowable, it is definitely damaging to a society if allowed to propagate significantly (and the way that happens is by not challenging it).

 

[Skillbus]

My advice is not to try to work your way out of the negative feeling associated with supporting his rights. Keep in mind that what you are doing is the lesser evil. Otherwise you introduce cognitive dissonance to how you perceive him, and decrease your ability to care about things like that, which is highly important. Use reason to maintain strict control of your actions, but not your emotions.

I'm just talking from personal experience though. I don't know shit about psychology.

 

[Andiferous]

My advice is not to try to work your way out of the negative feeling associated with supporting his rights. Keep in mind that what you are doing is the lesser evil. Otherwise you introduce cognitive dissonance to how you perceive him, and decrease your ability to care about things like that, which is highly important. Use reason to maintain strict control of your actions, but not your emotions.
I'm just talking from personal experience though. I don't know shit about psychology.

Please give this man a cookie!!

If I have said it once, I won't bother repeating myself.

The most reasonable reaction, in my estimation, is often the most calculated and unemotional reaction. It's a pain in the arse to do, but one has to keep in mind that they are setting an example in their actions, and those actions should represent what they believe. If this is what you believe. Getting confrontational tends to close off all communication, anyway.

Or this is what I think.

 

[KnowingLaughter]

Hey guys and gals,

Apologies for the slow reply, I have been whisked away for an art project and had no internet.

I just wanted to say thanks, I have really appreciated the input on this.

I have come to a point where I feel much more comfortable with my "hate" towards this guy, and these views in general. As stupid as it sounds -

It's okay to not like people.

- actually helped! Thanks Andiferous.

I think I spent so much time worrying about becoming prejudiced myself that I forgot there are actually valid reasons to dislike people. Weirdly enough with that in mind I find it a lot easier to let him be without it affecting me.

My advice is not to try to work your way out of the negative feeling associated with supporting his rights. Keep in mind that what you are doing is the lesser evil. Otherwise you introduce cognitive dissonance to how you perceive him, and decrease your ability to care about things like that, which is highly important. Use reason to maintain strict control of your actions, but not your emotions.

I'm just talking from personal experience though. I don't know shit about psychology.

You put in to words what my brain was trying to work towards but couldn't because of the emotion (brain-block) at the time. Spot on. Sod the qualification - psychology is subjective! Thanks Skillbus.

That's what us "liberals" and "lefties" are being accused of, isn't it? To treat every view and idea as valid and acceptable or excusable.

I didn't see the views as valid or acceptable, I suppose I just felt that I had to tolerate them. In a way I don't feel I need to any more - I mean he can still say them all he wants but if he wants a conversation with me - even as a tutor in the project - he is going to have to play by certain rules, if he can't then I do not need to give him the time of day.

I appreciate all the responses, it has been really useful to me and probably saved me a couple of weeks of brooding to come to the same conclusion. It's incredibly strange to be 26 and still feel so naive about dealing with such awkwardness! Thanks!

 

[RestrictedAccess]

What I wanted to know was how you guys reconcile opposing feelings that people shouldn't hold a view, at the same time as thinking that it is their right to do so.

Even irrational people have a right to their opinion. In like manner, I have a right to my opinion that they're stupid people, and should be treated as such. Maybe if they're continuously talked down to or dismissed, they'll get the hint...or they'll just start hating the "intellectual elite".

Secondly I was hoping for some advice on how to deal with these types without becoming angry to the point of aggression, and losing the integrity of my argument by resorting to insults. I don't want to become what I fear, but those feelings of contempt were so strong I didn't know how to deal with them rationally. I didn't physically act on that aggression, but it is the closest I have been since I was an angry teenager and that made me ashamed and uncomfortable.

Learn to walk away, or just not engage at all. There's a small gem of truth in the saying "Don't argue with stupid people, they'll drag you down to their level and beat you with experience."

 

[KnowingLaughter]

There's a small gem of truth in the saying "Don't argue with stupid people, they'll drag you down to their level and beat you with experience."

I have never heard that, but it's a funny saying!