Ineffective, sorry I mean 'holistic' medicine for students

[MRaverz]

To my delight, I found a leaflet this morning with the word 'holistic treatment' on it. Naturally, this set off my 'bullshit alarm' and I begun investigation.

My issue is with people who claim to be able to cure asthma, 'injuries' and irritable bowel syndrome with a massage, then advertise it towards students at unreasonably high prices. I'd have no problem if this person admitted that what they are doing amounted to nothing more than massages.

However, I also have an issue with potentially dangerous treatments, for example ear candles (at a cost of ,£30 for 30 minutes).

Oh and does anybody know what 'Myofascial release' is supposed to be?

This is the website: http://www.coreremedialbodyworks.co.uk/

 

[Memeticemetic]

Re: Ineffective, sorry I mean 'holistic' medicine for studen

Oh and does anybody know what 'Myofascial release' is supposed to be?

Yes, I was a massage therapist for a few years. Myofascial release is essentially a technique that targets the fascia which encases muscle and organs. It is a legitimate technique that physiologically does what it claims to when you ignore any woo that has been associated with it. Essentially, its just another way of getting blood flowing through worn and fatigued muscle tissue which is what massage therapy ultimately amounts to. That, and it's nice to have someone pamper you a bit.

There's a fair amount of woo bullshit in massage therapy in general. Cranio-sacral therapy is my personal favorite crock. This modality purports to manipulate the flow of cerebral-spinal fluid inside the spinal column by placing your hands at the sacrum and occipital ridge. The best part is you don't even have to touch someone to do it; apparently we can attune our energy or some such nonsense to it and manipulate the flow with our freakin' minds.

 

[MRaverz]

Re: Ineffective, sorry I mean 'holistic' medicine for studen

Oh and does anybody know what 'Myofascial release' is supposed to be?

Yes, I was a massage therapist for a few years. Myofascial release is essentially a technique that targets the fascia which encases muscle and organs. It is a legitimate technique that physiologically does what it claims to when you ignore any woo that has been associated with it. Essentially, its just another way of getting blood flowing through worn and fatigued muscle tissue which is what massage therapy ultimately amounts to. That, and it's nice to have someone pamper you a bit.

There's a fair amount of woo bullshit in massage therapy in general. Cranio-sacral therapy is my personal favorite crock. This modality purports to manipulate the flow of cerebral-spinal fluid inside the spinal column by placing your hands at the sacrum and occipital ridge. The best part is you don't even have to touch someone to do it; apparently we can attune our energy or some such nonsense to it and manipulate the flow with our freakin' minds.

Ahh yes, cranio-sacral therapy was mentioned as some point.

The leaflet just seemed to just say 'massage' in hundreds of different ways, then chucks in ear candles and the claim to cure asthma.

 

[FaithlessThinker]

Re: Ineffective, sorry I mean 'holistic' medicine for studen

Is it possible to have air or "air bubbles" trapped in your body? Sometimes a massage therapist with a fair bit of experience would tell you after massaging that you have a lot of air trapped in your body, especially if it's your first time or you do not go for regular massages. Sounds fine, but what really rings my bullshit alarm is this: They claim that while massaging, the air from my body would transfer through my skin into their fingers. As ridiculous as it sounds, some of them actually burp (aka belch) during the massage. While they apologize for doing so, they don't say it's from the bad lunch they ate. No. It's the air that was trapped in my body that transferred into theirs, causing them to burp.

 

[Prolescum]

Re: Ineffective, sorry I mean 'holistic' medicine for studen

Is it possible to have air or "air bubbles" trapped in your body?

Never cracked your knuckles? It's not air but would certainly give that impression. Easy to build a profitable lie upon.

 

[MRaverz]

Re: Ineffective, sorry I mean 'holistic' medicine for studen

Is it possible to have air or "air bubbles" trapped in your body? Sometimes a massage therapist with a fair bit of experience would tell you after massaging that you have a lot of air trapped in your body, especially if it's your first time or you do not go for regular massages. Sounds fine, but what really rings my bullshit alarm is this: They claim that while massaging, the air from my body would transfer through my skin into their fingers. As ridiculous as it sounds, some of them actually burp (aka belch) during the massage. While they apologize for doing so, they don't say it's from the bad lunch they ate. No. It's the air that was trapped in my body that transferred into theirs, causing them to burp.

The skin does it job well because it doesn't let things into your body, it's only when you cut your skin that you get infections. I seriously doubt that air can simply be pushed into your body in such a way.

 

[Memeticemetic]

Re: Ineffective, sorry I mean 'holistic' medicine for studen

I've never heard the 'air bubbles' claim before. The only way I know such a thing is possible is decompression sickness, when nitrogen turns to a gas in the bloodstream, especially the joints, and can seriously injure or kill someone. Usually massage therapists will talk about unspecified 'toxins' built up in the muscles that are released into the bloodstream. I do know that lactic acid will build up and can lead to mild nausea after a massage but that's about it.

On a peripherally related note, I was thinking last night about when I was in school for massage and cranio-sacral therapy was introduced to us. We all had a body in front of us and we were supposed to 'feel the flow' of cerebral spinal fluid by concentrating on wanting to feel it. After several others claimed to feel it, I actually began to feel it as well. I'm glad to this day that the idiot chick who was giving the seminar then went on to claim she could feel it from across the room, that snapped me back into my senses so I could determine that the reason I thought I felt the phenomenon was mostly due to the fact that I was trying to make myself feel/believe it.

Did the pamphlet mention cupping at all? That's another fun one. They put glass cups on your back and heat them up, creating a small vacuum that sucks up 'toxins' or 'bad energy' or some such nonsense.

 

[Hedley]

Re: Ineffective, sorry I mean 'holistic' medicine for studen

Ok, as a physician is 1345% worrysome that medicine student "learn" BS.
1-Air can only be placed in the sinuses (paranasal sinuses) digestive system (well a puky gas) and within respiratory system (of course).
I know that gas somewhere else is as safe as jump from a plane without parachute... I remember I saw it in a brain CT scan (the patient died, of course). Gas somewhere else means 3 things:
a-A gas-forming bacteria doing their business,

b-Any of the normal structures which have gase within broken

c-decompresion sickness.



2-The magic woo has 2 problems:
a-It is against the basic physiology corpus of science. Suppose that you learn that 2+3=5 in first year, and in the 3rd year, they say that 2+3=9, because 5 does not fit with the woo.

b-It is as mentioned before, not able to be demostrated via "regular" science: indeed, it is ineffective.

 

[MRaverz]

Re: Ineffective, sorry I mean 'holistic' medicine for studen

Did the pamphlet mention cupping at all? That's another fun one. They put glass cups on your back and heat them up, creating a small vacuum that sucks up 'toxins' or 'bad energy' or some such nonsense.

It mentioned it on the website as 'fire cupping': http://www.coreremedialbodyworks.co.uk/pages/remedial-treatments/fire-cupping.php .

It also claims that cupping will "[have] a profound effect on the circulatory & lymphatic system, boosts immunity, help to re-balance the body's natural energy."
The cost of having this done? ,£35.00 for 45 minutes. :shock:

I'm assuming that those false claims can be taken up with trading standards?

Ideally, I want to accumulate a list of the false claims and attempt to prevent them being used.

 

[MRaverz]

Re: Ineffective, sorry I mean 'holistic' medicine for studen

Ok, as a physician is 1345% worrysome that medicine student "learn" BS.
1-Air can only be placed in the sinuses (paranasal sinuses) digestive system (well a puky gas) and within respiratory system (of course).
I know that gas somewhere else is as safe as jump from a plane without parachute... I remember I saw it in a brain CT scan (the patient died, of course). Gas somewhere else means 3 things:
a-A gas-forming bacteria doing their business,

b-Any of the normal structures which have gase within broken

c-decompresion sickness.



2-The magic woo has 2 problems:
a-It is against the basic physiology corpus of science. Suppose that you learn that 2+3=5 in first year, and in the 3rd year, they say that 2+3=9, because 5 does not fit with the woo.

b-It is as mentioned before, not able to be demostrated via "regular" science: indeed, it is ineffective.

You seem to be the guy in the best position to disprove these claims, stick around.

 

[MRaverz]

Re: Ineffective, sorry I mean 'holistic' medicine for studen

Oh and final combo-post.

There's an obsession with pointing out that she's attempting to treat a problem, rather than the symptoms. As if this is something fascinating and new. Clearly, there is a lack of medical knowledge - but hey, that much was obvious. :lol:

 

[Memeticemetic]

Re: Ineffective, sorry I mean 'holistic' medicine for studen

It mentioned it on the website as 'fire cupping': http://www.coreremedialbodyworks.co.uk/pages/remedial-treatments/fire-cupping.php .

It also claims that cupping will "[have] a profound effect on the circulatory & lymphatic system, boosts immunity, help to re-balance the body's natural energy."
The cost of having this done? ,£35.00 for 45 minutes. :shock:

I'm assuming that those false claims can be taken up with trading standards?

Ideally, I want to accumulate a list of the false claims and attempt to prevent them being used.

Well, I'm not sure about how to go about taking action about these claims. There are state licensing boards in most states and most of those on the boards run or teach in massage schools. Schools where they teach these kinds of techniques. Usually they are careful not to make positive claims about the efficacy of any modality to actually cure any diseases. You'll find a lot of talk about facilitating the bodies ability to heal itself, and promoting general wellness. Conditions that they make claims that can be treated tend to be syndromes with few, if any, actual treatments. Things like fibromyalgia, irritable bowl syndrome, and TMJ come to mind. And arguments can be made that by physically helping the body relax and reducing overall stress levels can help relieve symptoms. And let's not forget the placebo effect, that always has a role to play too.

I just wish they would stick to the part no one would ever feel the need to argue against: It feels fucking great.

 

[Jebez42]

Re: Ineffective, sorry I mean 'holistic' medicine for studen

I believe there is a theory (supported by the medical profession) that gases are harmlessly "released" as bubbles from the fluid between the joints when they [joints] are separated. The gas bubbles break, sometimes making an audible sound, and are eventually "absorbed" back into the fluid. I believe this is what Prolescum may have been alluding.

 

[FaithlessThinker]

Re: Ineffective, sorry I mean 'holistic' medicine for studen

I believe there is a theory (supported by the medical profession) that gases are harmlessly "released" as bubbles from the fluid between the joints when they [joints] are separated. The gas bubbles break, sometimes making an audible sound, and are eventually "absorbed" back into the fluid. I believe this is what Prolescum may have been alluding.

These bubbles are only in the joints right? The masseur's bubbles claim concerns the whole body.

 

[Jebez42]

Re: Ineffective, sorry I mean 'holistic' medicine for studen

I believe there is a theory (supported by the medical profession) that gases are harmlessly "released" as bubbles from the fluid between the joints when they [joints] are separated. The gas bubbles break, sometimes making an audible sound, and are eventually "absorbed" back into the fluid. I believe this is what Prolescum may have been alluding.

These bubbles are only in the joints right? The masseur's bubbles claim concerns the whole body.

I guess it depends on how you interpret their claim; as there are a lot of joints in the body. I do not know of any other theories (supported by the medical profession) regarding gas bubbles. Should be testable though. Aren`t there portable test equipment that can capture/measure gasses? Just sample the air in the immediate area before and after (in an environmentally controlled space of course).

Note: I have not actually taken the time to review their claim. I am just commenting that there is medical evidence of gasses being released inside the body; but are reabsorbed by the source liquid. As this liquid is beneficial for the body, I do not see why they would claim it to be bad or contains "toxins". I think the gasses are nitrogen and mostly carbon dioxide; both are commonly found in the air. I believe this is what Prolescum meant by his statement below...

Never cracked your knuckles? It's not air but would certainly give that impression. Easy to build a profitable lie upon.

ahh ... Wikipedia to the rescue ... as Prolescum would write, here's the sauce

 

[Andiferous]

Re: Ineffective, sorry I mean 'holistic' medicine for studen

I cannot crack my knukles, but my toes crack all the time...

There are a few quacks on the 'holistic' bandwagon that really make a bad name for the rest - but drug treatments have their own issues, and sometimes have permanent effects. Pharmacy companies tend to have a corner on the health market though. i have a greek monster image of pharmacy companies in my head. That said, cynicism is pretty useless if selective.

There is nothing wrong with non-drug treatments. And I do not mean in the sense of waving a magnet over an aluminum can. Massage, physiotherapy and other non-invasive stuff can save you from the side effects and withdrawl stuff common in drugs. Yeah. Massage is awesome.

Should chiropractic stuff be accepted by the medical community? It's controversial, really. I'm not sure.

It might weed out the quacks and regulate treatments.

That said, I confess that doctors scare me.

 

[MRaverz]

Re: Ineffective, sorry I mean 'holistic' medicine for studen

Should chiropractic stuff be accepted by the medical community? It's controversial, really. I'm not sure.

It might weed out the quacks and regulate treatments.

The healing effects of conventional treatment and chiropractic in regards to back pain tend to be about the same, chiropractic just comes with a few added risks and tends to border on woo.

This isn't because chiropractic is actually any good, just that back pain in general is terribly hard to treat. Probably because, in general, a lot of 'pain' can be psychosomatic.