Idealism and Realism

[Laurens]

As an atheist, I think that it would be lovely to live in a world free from religion - this is an idealistic belief. I know that realistically it is extremely unlikely and certainly impossible during my own lifetime, due to our apparent psychological predisposition towards supernatural beliefs among other things.

I've had certain other idealistic beliefs in the past, for example when I was younger and listened to a great deal more punk music than I do now, I believed that all authority was bad, and that I would much prefer to live in an anarchistic society. However, as I got older and learned more I realised that this ideal was not realistic, and I felt that I should tune my political views in more with what is realistic (although I still hold onto a certain level of disdain for authority).

So I'm wondering does such idealism serve any purpose whatsoever? Should we abandon idealism and focus instead upon realism?

I think that some ideals probably do serve a useful purpose; for example, complete equality is unlikely to be achieved in society, however as members of the society, if we hold that ideal then things are likely to become as close to that ideal as is possible to achieve.

Maybe there are more benefits to idealism, I'm not sure...

What are your idealistic beliefs, and do you appreciate them for what they are?

 

[Dean]

Laurens

As an atheist, I think that it would be lovely to live in a world free from religion - this is an idealistic belief. I know that realistically it is extremely unlikely and certainly impossible during my own lifetime, due to our apparent psychological predisposition towards supernatural beliefs among other things. ["¦]

Anthropological evidence does indeed suggest that we have an "innate" sense of the supernatural, and it's also been suggested that people living in ancient times may have had a higher rate of hallucination or of "waking dreams", as we would call them in modern times. Of course, the likelihood is that these hallucinatory experiences did not cause religious beliefs. It's probably more likely that religious beliefs may have been initiated, at least in part, from cultural indoctrination, and therefore people would have dispositions to hallucinate about such things. This is probably why it doesn't surprise me that most god-concepts, at least in the monotheistic religions, are depicted as people. After all, there's probably not much else they could conceive of, other than some Eastern and e.g. Indian polytheisitc religions, which had anthropomorphic animals (or so it seems) in place of 'gods', or as gods.

But my position on the issue described here is a little more specific than that. It's obvious to me that religion is never going to die out. Nor do I necessarily think it would make the world a better place. It's just like to see it taken to state, wherein religious people and atheists alike are afforded the same rights. E.g. I want to be legally and morally equal, to those who get to call me "morally bankrupt" for accepting Darwinian evolution, "damned" because I don't accept their particular theology, "evil" and "sinful" because I am a non-heterosexual and cannot change my nature, and , as in America , "not even a citizen", for not believing in their god, and then getting to hide behind absurd accusations of "disrespect" if I question their ideas. And by this I don't mean in any way that I want to abolish religion per se, but rather, change social and political attitudes to the point that the fact of the existence of people who dissent from religion is simply a non-issue, and is accepted by theists and atheists alike. That's victory.

["¦] I've had certain other idealistic beliefs in the past, for example when I was younger and listened to a great deal more punk music than I do now, I believed that all authority was bad, and that I would much prefer to live in an anarchistic society. However, as I got older and learned more I realised that this ideal was not realistic, and I felt that I should tune my political views in more with what is realistic (although I still hold onto a certain level of disdain for authority). ["¦]

I am indeed naturally hateful of authority, and tend to regard it as a necessary evil, though I wouldn't necessarily advocate outright anarchy. I suppose my disdain for authority stems for my historical understanding of where authoritarian regimes can lead, and I'm not willing to compromise on that point.

["¦] So I'm wondering does such idealism serve any purpose whatsoever? Should we abandon idealism and focus instead upon realism?

I think that some ideals probably do serve a useful purpose; for example, complete equality is unlikely to be achieved in society, however as members of the society, if we hold that ideal then things are likely to become as close to that ideal as is possible to achieve.

Maybe there are more benefits to idealism, I'm not sure...

What are your idealistic beliefs, and do you appreciate them for what they are?

I don't like head-in-the-clouds idealism. I have no problem with it, so long as it is capable of describing the way things actually are. Otherwise it's pretty worthless to me.

 

[Anachronous Rex]

So I'm wondering does such idealism serve any purpose whatsoever? Should we abandon idealism and focus instead upon realism?

Yes to the first, yes and no to the second.

If history has taught us anything it is that you really don't know what is possible until you try it. Who in 1750 could have predicted what was to come in the second half of that century? Who would have thought that ideas like liberty, equality, and fraternity would suddenly rule the fates of great nations and shake the monarchical foundations of Europe - as millennial and impervious as they seemed - to their very core?

Now obviously this sort of upheaval was more productive is some places than in others; the French revolution quickly turned sour, but there is no reason in principal that it couldn't have succeeded had things gone differently.

However, if everyone had simply "focused instead upon realism" it simply would not have happened at all. People would have resigned themselves to the inevitability of Monarchy, and hoped merely for an enlightened despotism or a restrained one.

Which is not to say that realism is a bad thing either, and I suspect a balanced psyche needs some measure of both.

What are your idealistic beliefs, and do you appreciate them for what they are?

Well, perhaps its obvious from the above, but I'm something of a Jacobin. I'm also a firm believer in Western European style Democratic Socialism.

I suppose I might say that I am an Environmentalist as well, though I mostly advocate energy independence for the United States on the grounds that our need for oil tempts us to into treating with those we ought to oppose, both currently and historically. This prevents the United States from being the force for good in the world which it could be and ought to be.

 

[KittenKoder]

One would have to define what idealism means to them. It's one of those tricky multi-definition words. For example, religious idealism is structured and even detailed based on what another person believes. While cultural idealism is based and structured based on what those around that person do. There is even an idealism based on realism, many atheists have this one.

The root of idealism is "what we want to be real," thus you have to determine what type of idealism you are speaking about. Realistic idealism, idealism based on reality and science, it probably the most unconditional idealism. Though it is possible for others to be unconditional it is unlikely. The flaw with idealism is the social idealism, or cultural idealism. This is what has often lead to racism and other such prejudices. It is based on our natural instinct to prejudge based on visible differences, to know what plants or animals are either dangerous or food, for example. However, since those dangers are reduced drastically by being civilized the instinct becomes more sensitive and even attributes danger-beneficial relationships to our own species.

So the short answer is yes, idealism has it's place. But it should be noted that idealism itself can lead to some incorrect views on reality and should be taken with a grain of salt. Religious idealism, however, I cannot say is a good thing. It is far better to hope that there's justice after life than to bet on it.