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I once believed in Extraterrestrial Visitation

Raezazel

New Member
arg-fallbackName="Raezazel"/>
It's true. When I was young, about 11 years old, I looked in my school library for some science fiction books to read (it was a fetish of mine at the time). Little did I know that I would stumble upon one of the greatest examples of science fiction in the world...

I read a book about aliens. I've read many science fiction books before then, so I was familiar with the concept behind extraterrestrial life. But I was surprised to learn that these aliens are visiting earth and there is a massive worldwide government conspiracy to prevent the people from knowing this! I was shocked, it sounded amazing and insane, so I looked some more, and bob's your uncle. There was an entire shelf of such books, so I read and read until the certainty was imprinted into my brain that we were being visited! There were thousands of different confirmed sightings: Roswell in particular. I once watched a documentary about Roswell, and after I finished it I challenged my own mother to disprove my belief. She told me about how most of the sightings could be explained by natural means, and those that could not I had no real reason to call alien spacecraft. I reasoned:
1: My mother is a scientist (she teaches Botany and Evolutionary Biology at a college).
2: Scientists are in on the conspiracy.
3: My mother is a government stooge [This is probably the most horrid thing I have ever said to my mother (which could be a good thing or a bad thing, depending on how you look at it)].

Feeling that I had been victorious, I went to interrogate my step-father. He, however, refused to answer to any of my accusations, and he did something very unexpected. He gave me a book. It was called Metamagical Themas. Quite catchy.

So I read this book. This was the first scientific book I had read. I cannot describe the elation I received after gleaning the meaning of the book. It was about the mind. Patterns, text, creativity, AI and philosophy. It was amazing. And while I read this book, it mentioned, briefly and sporadically, a concept called logic. So I read more about this mysterious concept, and discovered it was a method to determine truth and the most desirable of responses to a situation. It appeared that logic was tied to science, so I had an idea. I would prove that Extraterrestrial Visitation was real and expose the conspiracy using science and logic! But then, I read other articles. About the sheer improbability of my beliefs, about how the Roswell stories were later exaggerated, etc. At first I refused to read them. But then, I read one. Just one. And then I read another. And another. Until eventually I was at a point were my belief in visitation was shaking to its foundations. So in one final pulse of rebellion I confronted my step-father, and told him everything that I thought was true. He listened, and when I stopped talking, he said "I know that it would be amazing and wonderful if everything you just said was true, but I can't make the leap of faith that you have." And then my breath turned to dust. I realized he was right, this was just a leap of faith, I have no real reason to believe in it.

So I stopped. And now, like a pioneer flower growing in the ashes of an erupted volcano, I was a rational person. Now I am 15. In hindsight, I relish this part of my childhood, as I know what it really feels like to have a fundamental part of my understanding of the world swept from beneath my feet.

Comments, concerns, criticism, candy?
 
arg-fallbackName="Canto"/>
No candy from me. I'd say that it is wholly possible that we have been visited. Not likely, but possible.

I believe there IS extraterrestrial life, but only in the sense that life will not turn out to be unique to our planet. If that life is on the same scale as we are is not something we can determine yet.
 
arg-fallbackName="Nelson"/>
Canto said:
No candy from me. I'd say that it is wholly possible that we have been visited. Not likely, but possible.

Well sure it's possible, but so are unicorns up my butt that disappear whenever someone attempts to observe them.

So I've never had a strong belief in extra-terrestrials visiting earth, nor have I had a definitive "conversion" moment to rationality, so I suppose I am a bit jealous there. When I read your topic title what it made me think of was individual abduction stories. For the last few years I have been experimenting with lucid dreaming, which can often result in sleep paralysis. Basically you wake up, but your brain is still sending signals to your muscles that indicate you should be asleep, so you can't move. This is also usually accompanied by vivid hallucinations since you are coming out of a dream state. The first time this happened to me it was probably the most terrifying thing I have ever experienced. As it had never happened to me before, and I had not read up on it, I was not clear minded enough to realize that I was simply hallucinating. I was absolutely convinced that someone was in the room with me and they had the intention of hurting me. Since then it has happened enough times that I now quickly realize what is going on, and I simply relax and ignore anything I see or hear until I can move again. I can only imagine what less rational individuals would conclude in that situation.
 
arg-fallbackName="DepricatedZero"/>
I believe in extraterrestrial life, in the manner that canto mentioned - I think it takes some serious hubris to think that life is exclusive to our planet. I don't think we would recognize other forms of life, I think it's also hubris to assume that other lifeforms in the universe would be carbon-based like we are, or would be humanoid at all.

But, kudos on getting out of the conspiricist mindset. I think that's really commendable. I think it's awesome that you've discovered and applied logic.
 
arg-fallbackName="Finger"/>
DepricatedZero said:
I believe in extraterrestrial life, in the manner that canto mentioned - I think it takes some serious hubris to think that life is exclusive to our planet. I don't think we would recognize other forms of life, I think it's also hubris to assume that other lifeforms in the universe would be carbon-based like we are, or would be humanoid at all.
As I understand it, the reason life on earth is carbon-based is because carbon is a very abundant element and can form all sorts of organic chemicals. Since there is nothing all that special about our planet, or even our solar system, why is it hubris to think that forms of life on other planets are most likely carbon based too?

Also, could it be that our morphological features -- such as free hands with very precise digits, vocal chords, ears, and a relatively large brain mass -- are the very things that make us intelligent and social enough to devise ways of journeying into space? If so, then why shouldn't we expect other space-faring forms of life to be all that different? Really, all we have to go on are the life forms that are here on Earth. Some of them are surprisingly smart. But try as they might, a chimp is far more likely to build a house than a crow, dolphin, or cuddle fish.
 
arg-fallbackName="DepricatedZero"/>
Finger said:
You have a good point, but our sample size is effectively one.

As I understand, life on earth originated from a single point. Not necessarily a single organism, but at least similar organisms spawned under identical conditions. These organisms were what we derived from, along with crows, dolphins, and cuddlefish - and humans by far aren't the only creates which construct their own havens.

At any rate, we don't know what conditions life spawned under, and whether those are the only possible conditions under which life can spawn.

We evolved to capitalize on some of the elements most common in our galaxy - hydrogen, oxygen, and carbon. As an example, the Andromeda Galaxy has an observed higher amount of heavy elements. I can't find information on it's chemical makeup, but even assuming it is as equally abundant in oxygen, hydrogen, carbon, and helium as the Milky Way, what's to say that the dominant species on a planet in that galaxy would be humanoid, and not reliant or even comprised of some of the more common heavy elements?

The conditions on their planet would be a bigger factor, even. Earth has relatively little Helium, but what if its count were reversed? Helium is more abundant than Oxygen in the Milky Way, but Oxygen is what we use to sustain ourselves. Likewise, if life were to spawn on a planet that was mostly devoid of Oxygen but heavy in Helium, it seems likely life would evolve to sustain itself on Helium instead - and that's just on the possibility that it followed an elsewise identical evolutionary path.

But what's to say that an alien species would be bipedal and vocalize? I don't think it's necessary that they're even 'enlightened' - and that's more what I was getting at. When we find life on another planet, it seems more likely to me that we'll find fish who swim in and breathe liquid methane, than find another civilization.

They also would grow to a different gravity, which could make them much stronger or weaker than humans, or more enduring growing under much higher atmospheric pressure - single celled organisms were found in the Challenge Deep, so we know life can make it under at least that pressure.

This is why I say we'll be disappointed. Because it likely won't be an intelligent species, it'll probably be a bunch of soft-shelled crab who taste good with ketchup.
 
arg-fallbackName="Nemesiah"/>
Raezazel said:
It's true. When I was young, about 11 years old, I looked in my school library for some science fiction books to read (it was a fetish of mine at the time). Little did I know that I would stumble upon one of the greatest examples of science fiction in the world...

I read a book about aliens. I've read many science fiction books before then, so I was familiar with the concept behind extraterrestrial life. But I was surprised to learn that these aliens are visiting earth and there is a massive worldwide government conspiracy to prevent the people from knowing this! I was shocked, it sounded amazing and insane, so I looked some more, and bob's your uncle. There was an entire shelf of such books, so I read and read until the certainty was imprinted into my brain that we were being visited! There were thousands of different confirmed sightings: Roswell in particular. I once watched a documentary about Roswell, and after I finished it I challenged my own mother to disprove my belief. She told me about how most of the sightings could be explained by natural means, and those that could not I had no real reason to call alien spacecraft. I reasoned:
1: My mother is a scientist (she teaches Botany and Evolutionary Biology at a college).
2: Scientists are in on the conspiracy.
3: My mother is a government stooge [This is probably the most horrid thing I have ever said to my mother (which could be a good thing or a bad thing, depending on how you look at it)].

Feeling that I had been victorious, I went to interrogate my step-father. He, however, refused to answer to any of my accusations, and he did something very unexpected. He gave me a book. It was called Metamagical Themas. Quite catchy.

So I read this book. This was the first scientific book I had read. I cannot describe the elation I received after gleaning the meaning of the book. It was about the mind. Patterns, text, creativity, AI and philosophy. It was amazing. And while I read this book, it mentioned, briefly and sporadically, a concept called logic. So I read more about this mysterious concept, and discovered it was a method to determine truth and the most desirable of responses to a situation. It appeared that logic was tied to science, so I had an idea. I would prove that Extraterrestrial Visitation was real and expose the conspiracy using science and logic! But then, I read other articles. About the sheer improbability of my beliefs, about how the Roswell stories were later exaggerated, etc. At first I refused to read them. But then, I read one. Just one. And then I read another. And another. Until eventually I was at a point were my belief in visitation was shaking to its foundations. So in one final pulse of rebellion I confronted my step-father, and told him everything that I thought was true. He listened, and when I stopped talking, he said "I know that it would be amazing and wonderful if everything you just said was true, but I can't make the leap of faith that you have." And then my breath turned to dust. I realized he was right, this was just a leap of faith, I have no real reason to believe in it.

So I stopped. And now, like a pioneer flower growing in the ashes of an erupted volcano, I was a rational person. Now I am 15. In hindsight, I relish this part of my childhood, as I know what it really feels like to have a fundamental part of my understanding of the world swept from beneath my feet.

Comments, concerns, criticism, candy?

Raezazel said:
Now I am 15. In hindsight, I relish this part of my childhood,

Please don't take this as an offense, it is not meant as such.

You are still a kid; you seem like a bright kid so don't denny yourself your own childhood, (teenager is a mede up term).

Make friends, have fun and dream. Being an adult has its perks yes but it comes mostly with responsabilities and once it's gone childhood is impossible to recapture.

A lenghty (not pathologically long though) childhood is essential to a healthy adulthood. You want to grow up, that is natural, but if you can; think of yourself as big kid, not a small adult. You will have the rest of your life to be an adult. Don,´t get me wrong being an adult is fun at times but if you become an adult too soon you will become stuck in a perpetual inbetween state (belive me I know many myself included) that having been denied a healthy lengthy childhood have severe problems being adults.

I'm no phsychologist, or Psyquiatrist, this is my own opinion, if there are any in these group thier input on the subject would be greatly appreciated.

On the Ufo thing as with any other weird far out belief it is fun and exciting, science does the same but science does it right, there are scientist looking for ufos and E.T.s but they do it scientifically, methodically and logically (the SETI program) http://www.seti.org/

Best of luck!
 
arg-fallbackName="Raezazel"/>
Nemesiah said:
Raezazel said:
It's true. When I was young, about 11 years old, I looked in my school library for some science fiction books to read (it was a fetish of mine at the time). Little did I know that I would stumble upon one of the greatest examples of science fiction in the world...

I read a book about aliens. I've read many science fiction books before then, so I was familiar with the concept behind extraterrestrial life. But I was surprised to learn that these aliens are visiting earth and there is a massive worldwide government conspiracy to prevent the people from knowing this! I was shocked, it sounded amazing and insane, so I looked some more, and bob's your uncle. There was an entire shelf of such books, so I read and read until the certainty was imprinted into my brain that we were being visited! There were thousands of different confirmed sightings: Roswell in particular. I once watched a documentary about Roswell, and after I finished it I challenged my own mother to disprove my belief. She told me about how most of the sightings could be explained by natural means, and those that could not I had no real reason to call alien spacecraft. I reasoned:
1: My mother is a scientist (she teaches Botany and Evolutionary Biology at a college).
2: Scientists are in on the conspiracy.
3: My mother is a government stooge [This is probably the most horrid thing I have ever said to my mother (which could be a good thing or a bad thing, depending on how you look at it)].

Feeling that I had been victorious, I went to interrogate my step-father. He, however, refused to answer to any of my accusations, and he did something very unexpected. He gave me a book. It was called Metamagical Themas. Quite catchy.

So I read this book. This was the first scientific book I had read. I cannot describe the elation I received after gleaning the meaning of the book. It was about the mind. Patterns, text, creativity, AI and philosophy. It was amazing. And while I read this book, it mentioned, briefly and sporadically, a concept called logic. So I read more about this mysterious concept, and discovered it was a method to determine truth and the most desirable of responses to a situation. It appeared that logic was tied to science, so I had an idea. I would prove that Extraterrestrial Visitation was real and expose the conspiracy using science and logic! But then, I read other articles. About the sheer improbability of my beliefs, about how the Roswell stories were later exaggerated, etc. At first I refused to read them. But then, I read one. Just one. And then I read another. And another. Until eventually I was at a point were my belief in visitation was shaking to its foundations. So in one final pulse of rebellion I confronted my step-father, and told him everything that I thought was true. He listened, and when I stopped talking, he said "I know that it would be amazing and wonderful if everything you just said was true, but I can't make the leap of faith that you have." And then my breath turned to dust. I realized he was right, this was just a leap of faith, I have no real reason to believe in it.

So I stopped. And now, like a pioneer flower growing in the ashes of an erupted volcano, I was a rational person. Now I am 15. In hindsight, I relish this part of my childhood, as I know what it really feels like to have a fundamental part of my understanding of the world swept from beneath my feet.

Comments, concerns, criticism, candy?

Raezazel said:
Now I am 15. In hindsight, I relish this part of my childhood,

Please don't take this as an offense, it is not meant as such.

You are still a kid; you seem like a bright kid so don't deny yourself your own childhood, (teenager is a made up term).

Make friends, have fun and dream. Being an adult has its perks yes but it comes mostly with responsibilities and once it's gone childhood is impossible to recapture.

A lengthy (not pathologically long though) childhood is essential to a healthy adulthood. You want to grow up, that is natural, but if you can; think of yourself as big kid, not a small adult. You will have the rest of your life to be an adult. Don,´t get me wrong being an adult is fun at times but if you become an adult too soon you will become stuck in a perpetual in-between state (believe me I know many myself included) that having been denied a healthy lengthy childhood have severe problems being adults.

I'm no psychologist, or Psychiatrist, this is my own opinion, if there are any in these group their input on the subject would be greatly appreciated.

On the Ufo thing as with any other weird far out belief it is fun and exciting, science does the same but science does it right, there are scientist looking for ufos and E.T.s but they do it scientifically, methodically and logically (the SETI program) http://www.seti.org/

Best of luck!
I don't exactly see what there is to take offense too, but thank you anyway. What I meant by "part of my childhood" is "part of my childhood". I know that my childhood isn't over yet. And I do make friends, and dream (particularly about being a Cosmologist). But thank you for your feedback :D
 
arg-fallbackName="Lallapalalable"/>
Canto said:
No candy from me. I'd say that it is wholly possible that we have been visited. Not likely, but possible.

I believe there IS extraterrestrial life, but only in the sense that life will not turn out to be unique to our planet. If that life is on the same scale as we are is not something we can determine yet.
This.

I believe that for life to be unique to a single planet is preposterous, given the sheer scale of the universe. However, for it to be advanced to the point that it can travel untold light years and pinpoint life on our planet is quite shaky. For one, SETI concluded that our own shell of radio waves dissipates into white noise after several light years, so they would have to fly really close to pick up on any discernable information that would lead them to us (suck on that, 1980s Carl Sagan!). Further, they could be so beyond our progress levels that they wouldnt bat an eye at our civilization. Inversely, they could be bacteria. There's no way to know unless we see them, and until we do we wont.
 
arg-fallbackName="MRaverz"/>
I went through a similar experience, though not to your extremes. I have a feeling that most scientists were unscientific as kids. :D
 
arg-fallbackName="GoldenFleece"/>
Nelson said:
Canto said:
No candy from me. I'd say that it is wholly possible that we have been visited. Not likely, but possible.

Well sure it's possible, but so are unicorns up my butt that disappear whenever someone attempts to observe them.

So I've never had a strong belief in extra-terrestrials visiting earth, nor have I had a definitive "conversion" moment to rationality, so I suppose I am a bit jealous there. When I read your topic title what it made me think of was individual abduction stories. For the last few years I have been experimenting with lucid dreaming, which can often result in sleep paralysis. Basically you wake up, but your brain is still sending signals to your muscles that indicate you should be asleep, so you can't move. This is also usually accompanied by vivid hallucinations since you are coming out of a dream state. The first time this happened to me it was probably the most terrifying thing I have ever experienced. As it had never happened to me before, and I had not read up on it, I was not clear minded enough to realize that I was simply hallucinating. I was absolutely convinced that someone was in the room with me and they had the intention of hurting me. Since then it has happened enough times that I now quickly realize what is going on, and I simply relax and ignore anything I see or hear until I can move again. I can only imagine what less rational individuals would conclude in that situation.

I get sleep paralysis the odd time, used to get it often when working night shifts. Once I felt there was someone sitting on my back strangling me, most other times its hallucinations of insects. It can be quite terrifiying.

When I was a early teen I was an X-files nut, and definitely believed in alien abductions, government cover ups etc, funnily enough when my believe in alien visititaions faded so did my faith in God.
 
arg-fallbackName="Your Funny Uncle"/>
Finger said:
The conditions on their planet would be a bigger factor, even. Earth has relatively little Helium, but what if its count were reversed? Helium is more abundant than Oxygen in the Milky Way, but Oxygen is what we use to sustain ourselves. Likewise, if life were to spawn on a planet that was mostly devoid of Oxygen but heavy in Helium, it seems likely life would evolve to sustain itself on Helium instead - and that's just on the possibility that it followed an elsewise identical evolutionary path.
I agree with everything else you said, but I have to take issue with this. The thing about Oxygen that makes it key to life here is its reactivity. It combines easily with and is easily separated from Carbon and other elements. As a noble gas with low reactivity, it's hard for me to see how Helium could become part of some life sustaining feedback loop in the same way Oxygen has on Earth. I'm no biologist or chemist so I'm ready to be corrected, but it makes little sense to me.
 
arg-fallbackName="Yfelsung"/>
When I was in elementary school I do remember reading something that mentioned that any intelligent life would likely have similar features to us because our body shape probably helped us become smarter, since we had the dexterity to build fine tools and stuff.

Basically the book was saying anything as smart as us would likely need the same amounts of dexterity, so they'd have at least somewhat similar things to hands, and standing upright allows one to see more, so they'd probably stand upright and so forth.
 
arg-fallbackName="Jotto999"/>
Meh, I used to believe in some shit a while back too. Though I attribute it to poor mental health, being a teenager, and having a mother that often tried to feed me conspiracy theories.

You should feel good that you have progressed since then.
 
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