I accepted Atheism today

[Dragan Glas]

Greetings metricdragon,

So, your first language is English then - that explains your better-than-expected use of it!

I had something of a similar experience with my Catholic faith when I was entering my teens - which is when one grows out of the child's acceptance of everything and begins to question what one's been told.

I asked the priest in our Religion class (Roman Catholicism, only), "What if going to church doesn't mean anything to you?", as I hadn't felt anything for a year or so. He answered, "Then don't go." - so, I stopped going to church, and things went from there. Many years later I did go into a church but didn't feel anything like the awe I'd felt as a child.

I no longer consider myself Catholic - I can't tick the items of faith on a check list anymore - but I'm still Christian (not Protestant), if only a heretical version: Ebionite.

If English is your first language, then the sky's the limit in terms of books, etc!

I recently bought a copy of Marcus Aurelius' Meditations - I'd read it years ago, having borrowed it from the library, but want a copy for myself now. I've yet to read Hume or anything on the Humanism area of philosophy - I mainly stuck with Greco-Roman and Eastern over the years - and, of course, Christian. Also, cognitive-based therapy - such as Gilbert's The Compassionate Mind and The Lost Art of Being Happy: Spirituality for Sceptics.

You mentioned fear - may I ask is this related to a feeling of emptiness, having lost your faith or due to concerns at being found out, whether by your family or "the authorities" (in relation to punishment for apostasy)?

Kindest regards,

James

 

[metricdragon]

Thanks James, it feels good to come here, because everyone in my life either will or does have problems with my transition.

I told my brother this morning, I couldn't help it, I have problems with trying to lie, it's so difficult for me. He just seemed hurt and disturbed. It's really difficult for me to deal with that. Why do I feel I have to be honest?

You mentioned fear - may I ask is this related to a feeling of emptiness, having lost your faith or due to concerns at being found out, whether by your family or "the authorities" (in relation to punishment for apostasy)?

Actually the perpetuation of hiding scares me much more than being found for some reason.

My fear is mostly towards my decision and whether I've made the right decision.

I feel I have made the right decision and I have no reason to believe otherwise, but right now it just hurts to stare at a future of dishonesty.

 

[Commander Eagle]

Better to be dishonest than dead.

Once you leave the area, you can tell whoever you want. Until then, though, I'd really prefer that you didn't die. I'd feel guilty.

 

[RichardMNixon]

Better to be dishonest than dead.

Once you leave the area, you can tell whoever you want. Until then, though, I'd really prefer that you didn't die. I'd feel guilty.

Agreed, atheism has no need for martyrs and no jealous god you'd be betraying if you should happen to "convert" under duress.

 

[Dragan Glas]

Greetings metricdragon,

Thanks James, it feels good to come here, because everyone in my life either will or does have problems with my transition.

I told my brother this morning, I couldn't help it, I have problems with trying to lie, it's so difficult for me. He just seemed hurt and disturbed. It's really difficult for me to deal with that. Why do I feel I have to be honest?

You mentioned fear - may I ask is this related to a feeling of emptiness, having lost your faith or due to concerns at being found out, whether by your family or "the authorities" (in relation to punishment for apostasy)?

Actually the perpetuation of hiding scares me much more than being found for some reason.

My fear is mostly towards my decision and whether I've made the right decision.

I feel I have made the right decision and I have no reason to believe otherwise, but right now it just hurts to stare at a future of dishonesty.

I agree with both Commander Eagle and RichardMNixon.

Your concerns about being dishonest to your loved ones do you credit - but keeping your own counsel is not the same as lying.

There is also your family's safety to consider: although you've told your brother, if others outside your family should find out, it may place them in some danger, given that they will be staying there(?).

Having said that, the UAE is generally the more enlightened end of the Muslim world - although, I grant you, the continuing war(s) involving the Judaeo-Christian West and the Muslim Middle-East has exacerbated the Fundamentalist attitudes of both cultures.

I've known a number of Muslims when I worked in the UK - from "Fundies" to "lapsed" (don't go to the mosque, drink/smoke, etc) - and generally found them alright (even the former in discussing religious differences). However, the same relatively relaxed attitudes of UK Muslims (more often lapsed) are unlikely to occur in the UAE.

So, it's best to keep your own counsel until you're safely back home in the UK and can then let your brother let your family know - if he hasn't already done so. I trust that he's been discreet about it.

Kindest regards,

James

 

[metricdragon]

I started praying again today, it felt so empty and despondent, even more so than before. I just wanted to see how I'd react to it, it wasn't good... I won't do it again.

I suppose it's mindless to tell people, even if I feel dishonest. I'll just have to bear with it till I get back to England.

 

[Dragan Glas]

Greetings,

It's understandable to feel a need to unburden yourself, metricdragon - those who suffer a bereavement often feel the same need to talk to someone.

I don't know if you're feeling "down" over your self-realization - I did when I gave up my belief in the divinity of Jesus and the virgin birth - but you may find Gilbert's Overcoming Depression of use: he explains how, due to our biological nature, anyone can experience depressive symptoms.

This is also why I recommended cultivating compassion within yourself - not just for others but for yourself.

Without wishing to turn "Christian" on you, I've always felt that the "Second Commandment" - "Love thy neighbour as thyself" - stands or falls on how much love you have for yourself: you can only love others as much as you love yourself. Compassion, rather than narcissism. When I was at school - many years ago - I wrote a essay on that theme.

Kindest regards,

James

 

[Gnug215]

Hi MD,

I want to congratulate you, too.

Not for being an atheist, but for your intellectual honestly and rigor. For your open-mindedness and for your humility. Not that these things have inevitably led you to atheism, but you let the arguments and evidence lead you, and you didn't stubbornly hold on to your old ways.

I suppose the emotional turmoil you're going through is disconcerting, but if you need someone to talk with about that, I'm certain a lot of people here are willing, and they have the experience.

 

[RichardMNixon]

Having said that, the UAE is generally the more enlightened end of the Muslim world

The UAE was where an unmarried couple received a year in prison for "indecent assault by consent," that is, kissing. I think it's a crapshoot; Sharia justice is a[n extremely offensive] joke.

 

[JustBusiness17]

I started praying again today, it felt so empty and despondent, even more so than before. I just wanted to see how I'd react to it, it wasn't good... I won't do it again.

If you're approaching this critically, it's best not to discount the social functions of rituals altogether. Just understand how it can be used to undermine autonomy within populations and you should be safe.

BTW, have you considered meditation? If I'm not mistaken, it has proven physiological benefits. It could be a way to replace your outsourcing of problems to Allah with an inward reflection. I don't meditate (yet) so I'm not sure about all the details but it's definitely an option...

I suppose it's mindless to tell people, even if I feel dishonest. I'll just have to bear with it till I get back to England.

Risk of persecution has kept many non-believers in the closet. The image of religion by population is a bit of an illusion because there are so many people who "fake-believe" to maintain their social networks.

 

[Dragan Glas]

Greetings,

Having said that, the UAE is generally the more enlightened end of the Muslim world

The UAE was where an unmarried couple received a year in prison for "indecent assault by consent," that is, kissing. I think it's a crapshoot; Sharia justice is a[n extremely offensive] joke.

Having tracked this down from your quoted comment, I see that the couple was Indian who were turned in by the taxi driver in whose vehicle they were travelling at the time.

I also note that this particular Emirate (Sharjah) has a somewhat stricter Emir than the others - these laws appear to be applied to non-Westerners (Indians, Filipinos, etc, who are easily distinguishable in appearance - talk about Arizona's "racial profiling"!) rather than Westerners (read whites) whose embassies would be more likely to protest and break-off relations.

Still, point noted.

Kindest regards,

James

 

[JustBusiness17]

Having tracked this down from your quoted comment, I see that the couple was Indian who were turned in by the taxi driver in whose vehicle they were travelling at the time.

I also note that this particular Emirate (Sharjah) has a somewhat stricter Emir than the others - these laws appear to be applied to non-Westerners (Indians, Filipinos, etc, who are easily distinguishable in appearance - talk about Arizona's "racial profiling"!) rather than Westerners (read whites) whose embassies would be more likely to protest and break-off relations.

Excellent example of price discrimination in religion. The strategy eliminates purchase barriers in certain markets to capture the additional economic surplus. This type of religious alteration could help explain how Christianity evolved into a relatively peaceful religion in certain areas of the world...

It's also a great public relations strategy.

jBiz

 

[Case]

JB, ... do you really have to try this hard to post this crap in every thread, despite the obviously and completely unrelated issues that are being discussed? The fact that you're feeling lonely is sad, but please, don't take it out on us.

 

[JustBusiness17]

JB, ... do you really have to try this hard to post this crap in every thread, despite the obviously and completely unrelated issues that are being discussed? The fact that you're feeling lonely is sad, but please, don't take it out on us.

I'm not sure why my participation on these forums bothers you. Perhaps its intellectual jealousy, although I don't know why you would envy something outside your field of interest. Not that I need to justify myself to you or anything but I happen to value intellectual stimulation. I'm assuming others share the same values based on the intellectual curiosity required to be a rationalist. In that sense, I'm sorry I can't ENDLESSLY speak on atheist favorites like fucking biology, chemistry, and physics. If you haven't noticed, I'm the only person trying to offer any type of insights into the world of business -something all you so-called rationalists could use a heavy dose of!

Open your eyes and look around. That's right... business has touched almost everything you see. How rational can you be if you don't take an interest in something that's all around you? I personally try to run the gamut and I'm trying to help everyone else do the same! I mean seriously, economics is the empirical study of exchange. Whether it be something tangible like goods for currency, or the intangibles like time, energy, or knowledge, there's a supply and demand for everything. If you don't think its worth the time or energy to acquire whatever knowledge I may be able to offer you, just put me on your ever expanding 'block list'. Otherwise:

-If you don't understand it -figure it out
-If you do understand it -help spread it around.

Your recent stint of flaming the boards makes me apathetic to your presence. It seems like the only time you attack the keyboard is when someone's irked your delicate sense of how things should be. Nobody cares about your pet peaves...

I'm reporting your post, and any other post of yours that has even the slightest hint of inflammatory tonality as "trolling" until you fix up or get shut up! I apologize in advance for the extra work that the mods will have to go through because you finally triggered my own sense of how things should be.

 

[Case]

I apologize to everyone else here for feeding that troll. Shouldn't have. Live and learn, live and learn. Sorry metric.

 

[JustBusiness17]

I apologize to everyone else here for feeding that troll. Shouldn't have. Live and learn, live and learn. Sorry metric.

Reported

 

[Dragan Glas]

Greetings,

Gentlemen, gentlemen, calm down.

Perhaps, JustBusiness17, the Mods could leave your original economics post here and copy/split it - or you could - and start a new topic, in a suitable forum on the site, entitled "The Economics of Religion", perhaps!?

As an aside, I've never considered that all "Atheists" are Rationalists - as I'm sure you'll agree, it's a catch-all for all sorts of non-Theistic philosophies.

As regards your economics post - although perhaps this might be better posted in the proposed topic - I'm reminded of John Kay's anecdote (pages 193-4) in The Truth About Markets, where he tells of a discussion he had with a group of anthropologists over a round of drinks concerning the act of buying said round.

Both he and his companions gave their explanations for buying a round from the perspective of their own respective fields. Kay proposed a test to see which competing explanation was the correct one: whether a person felt cheated or victorious depending on the number of rounds they had to buy against those bought for the person. Neither side could agree on that question. He realized that it was a mistake to try to decide which explanation was best.

As he said:

...One could not establish the truth of one explanation at the expense of the other. Both the transactions-cost theory and the taxonomy of gift exchange contributed to a partial understanding of why people behave this way: neither could provide the whole story.

Social behaviour needs to be understood in many dimensions and at many levels...

I think that sums up the situation perfectly: it's not possible to use a single theory to explain religions or how they turn out the way they do. Although it does add to an understanding in such a discussion.

Kindest regards,

James

 

[JustBusiness17]

Perhaps, JustBusiness17, the Mods could leave your original economics post here and copy/split it - or you could - and start a new topic, in a suitable forum on the site, entitled "The Economics of Religion", perhaps!?

I thought I posted that already... Can't remember

As an aside, I've never considered that all "Atheists" are Rationalists - as I'm sure you'll agree, it's a catch-all for all sorts of non-Theistic philosophies.

My comment was more along the lines of "all atheists like to believe they're rationalists" which is why I qualified the word 'rationalist' with 'so called'

As regards your economics post - although perhaps this might be better posted in the proposed topic - I'm reminded of John Kay's anecdote

As he said:

...One could not establish the truth of one explanation at the expense of the other. Both the transactions-cost theory and the taxonomy of gift exchange contributed to a partial understanding of why people behave this way: neither could provide the whole story.

Social behaviour needs to be understood in many dimensions and at many levels...

If I were going to throw my hat into the mix, I would say that gift theory works within the supply and demand. The problem is that its tough to really understand people's perceived costs and perceived benefits. They're complex and almost certainly unexplainable by even the people themselves.

As you say, despite the flaws inherent to applying simple models onto complex human behaviour, they do contribute to understanding - I would argue significantly. Maybe one day brain mapping will get to the point where we can understand how all the brain's processes work in synergy, but until then, this is the best we've got.

I think that sums up the situation perfectly: it's not possible to use a single theory to explain religions or how they turn out the way they do. Although it does add to an understanding in such a discussion.

Various theories look at various things. It's understanding how the theories relate that's difficult...

 

[Lallapalalable]

I think compulsory contemplation plagues many LoRers. Maybe that trait is what separates theists from nontheists?

Anyway, good for you! Not self serving or anything, but glad you came to any conclusion by means of reasoning (although I cant help but put another check mark in the atheist column )

 

[Nemesiah]

I'm not advocating that you do anything about it (I understand that where you live apostaty results in death) but I would like to ask you this:

What do feel when you see those close to you pray? How do you feel when you see a child beeing told the same Ideas you have recently found to be false / ilogicall / inconsecuential?

I ask this because as of late I have found myself becoming much more outspoken about my atheism (granted in Mexico I'm not very affraid of getting hung for appostaty) in the recent months, even though I have been an atheist for 15 years now.

I used to think that anyone could think whatever they felt like; but seeing the problems of the world today (and how they relate to religious beliefs) I don't think that people have a right to have beliefs that forgive / condone / order the death of those that do not share their faith.

I would greatly appreciate your thoughts on this.

Thanks

PS: Congrtulations on freeing yourself from the shackles of religion, we may not promise anything after death but ateism brings an amazing importance to the life you are actually going to live.