How to kill religion ???

[SirYeen]

To me if people use the mind of a child to flush down a bunch of nonsense with no use whatsoever (History is useful because you can use it to understand how things got this shitty,Science is useful because it works, religion has no use) I call that indoctrination. No, not in the way of a sect. But I was taught myself to just accept the bible, to not be skeptical. The bible was the truth and although it's not as bad as the average creationist school that doesn't mean it should be tolerated.

We are *not* learning it the right way in school. The right way would be with skepticism and with arguments against it. This is not how I've learned it and I've not seen allot of people with a completely different kind of education in my country.

I'm not optimistic about religion and I think I have good reasons not to be.
It is not positive because it has no use, it doesn't give us anything. Therefor it can only be neutral or bad.
It is not neutral because it prevents people from becoming conscious, because religion can be used as a method to control people, because religion can be used as a motivation to do terrible things,...

I see no reason for it to live.

Bottom line : You have a wrong view on religion classes. I was raised Christian (and not extremist christian) and I find it to be horrible. I don't want to know what happens in extremist muslim/christian classes or moderate muslim classes.

 

[Prolescum]

Look, you're talking about people indoctrinating children, however, that is not what happens in an RE class.

Actually you're wrong about that, at least in Primary Schools in Australia. Ever heard a bunch of kids singing religious songs with the punchline:

"You better believe in me. Or WATCH OUT!"?

No, but I'm not Australian and was giving my own experience as to what happens within an RE class at GCSE level (gosh, so many years ago...). I concede that my knowledge on the educational syllabi of countries I don't live in is limited.

Does this happens at a morning assembly or in an RE class? Is the school a secular or faith-based? Does it happen in all schools or just some?

That's not the only example I can provide, but it was the most shocking.

It's not quite an example, actually. You're expecting me to take your word for it, and your wording is pretty vague.

Indoctrination takes place in Primary Schools in this country. There's teaching religion, and teaching about religion. I support the latter. The former makes me sick.

Indeed, that is what is already on the curriculum (here at least), which would be banned under the OP's proposed laws (or law).

 

[SirYeen]

Where exactly did I say they shouldn't be able to learn it ? I said they shouldn't be able to learn it at school.

Religion has been a massive part of human history and you really cannot tell the story without it. It's also pretty important in understanding how the world operates in general, so I don't think what you're suggesting there is a very good idea.

Again you are right about religion being mentioned. My main concern is how it is mentioned. In my school we have religion classes where the bible is seen as truth.

Let me just quote something (this is from a MODERATE CHRISTIAN CLASS)

"The second law of thermodynamics contradicts the evolution theory (order to chaos vs chaos to order) and we can only reconcile them if we create a new world view of creativity and inspiration. "

Like I said the new class could perfectly handle religion , just in a "slightly different" way. (read : Study the Qur'an ,bible and co as a sceptic would and use it to make people think for their own. Learn people how to criticize things properly by using the bible and the Qur'an as target.

 

[SirYeen]

@Prolescum

You are acting like I said "burn all the books, nobody should ever read them". I never said that and I never will.

 

[SirYeen]

Let me do some editing.

Thanks alot =)

 

[Prolescum]

To me if people use the mind of a child to flush down a bunch of nonsense with no use whatsoever (History is useful because you can use it to understand how things got this shitty,Science is useful because it works, religion has no use) I call that indoctrination. No, not in the way of a sect. But I was taught myself to just accept the bible, to not be skeptical. The bible was the truth and although it's not as bad as the average creationist school that doesn't mean it should be tolerated.

We are *not* learning it the right way in school. The right way would be with skepticism

Yes.

and with arguments against it.

No, not alone. If they can't decide themselves, what makes what you're doing any different to the indoctrination you hate so much?

This is not how I've learned it and I've not seen allot of people with a completely different kind of education in my country.

Which is?

I'm not optimistic about religion and I think I have good reasons not to be.
It is not positive because it has no use, it doesn't give us anything. Therefor it can only be neutral or bad.
It is not neutral because it prevents people from becoming conscious, because religion can be used as a method to control people, because religion can be used as a motivation to do terrible things,...

Prevents them from being conscious? Lol.

Can be used to control people? So can psychology or advertising.

Motivation to do terrible things? I think your earlier dismissal of history has stood you in poor stead, mon ami; religion isn't even the prime motivation for the terrible things that happen on our little planet, wealth is.

I see no reason for it to live.

And your opinion is only one of 6.7 billion.

Bottom line : You have a wrong view on religion classes.

No, I have a specific view. Whether I'm wrong or right here is a matter of opinion. Much like most things in life. Rational, reasonable people recognise this. I hold that all information should be available, to our detriment or favour, and none of your arguments have had any effect on my view thus far.

I was raised Christian (and not extremist christian) and I find it to be horrible. I don't want to know what happens in extremist muslim/christian classes or moderate muslim classes.

I was raised without any occult overlord, and I find it fascinating. Just because you were once a believer and now you're not, it doesn't negate the value of learning about one of the most prevalent of all cultural traditions.

Edit:

@Prolescum

You are acting like I said "burn all the books, nobody should ever read them". I never said that and I never will.

Hardly. Why can't people just have a conversation without making pointless statements like that? I never said you were, you acknowledge that I didn't and you didn't, so what's the purpose behind it? What exactly are you really trying to suggest?

 

[SirYeen]

To me if people use the mind of a child to flush down a bunch of nonsense with no use whatsoever (History is useful because you can use it to understand how things got this shitty,Science is useful because it works, religion has no use) I call that indoctrination. No, not in the way of a sect. But I was taught myself to just accept the bible, to not be skeptical. The bible was the truth and although it's not as bad as the average creationist school that doesn't mean it should be tolerated.

We are *not* learning it the right way in school. The right way would be with skepticism

Yes.

and with arguments against it.

No, not alone. If they can't decide themselves, what makes what you're doing any different to the indoctrination you hate so much?

This is not how I've learned it and I've not seen allot of people with a completely different kind of education in my country.

Which is?

I'm not optimistic about religion and I think I have good reasons not to be.
It is not positive because it has no use, it doesn't give us anything. Therefor it can only be neutral or bad.
It is not neutral because it prevents people from becoming conscious, because religion can be used as a method to control people, because religion can be used as a motivation to do terrible things,...

Prevents them from being conscious? Lol.

Can be used to control people? So can psychology or advertising.

Motivation to do terrible things? I think your earlier dismissal of history has stood you in poor stead, mon ami; religion isn't even the prime motivation for the terrible things that happen on our little planet, wealth is.

I see no reason for it to live.

And your opinion is only one of 6.7 billion.

Bottom line : You have a wrong view on religion classes.

No, I have a specific view. Whether I'm wrong or right here is a matter of opinion. Much like most things in life. Rational, reasonable people recognise this. I hold that all information should be available, to our detriment or favour, and none of your arguments have had any effect on my view thus far.

I was raised Christian (and not extremist christian) and I find it to be horrible. I don't want to know what happens in extremist muslim/christian classes or moderate muslim classes.

I was raised without any occult overlord, and I find it fascinating. Just because you were once a believer and now you're not, it doesn't negate the value of learning about one of the most prevalent of all cultural traditions.

Edit:

@Prolescum

You are acting like I said "burn all the books, nobody should ever read them". I never said that and I never will.

Hardly. Why can't people just have a conversation without making pointless statements like that? I never said you were, you acknowledge that I didn't and you didn't, so what's the purpose behind it? What exactly are you really trying to suggest?

1. I wouldn't be indoctrinating them because the idea of the classes wouldn't be to just learn what's wrong with the bible. Basically a lesson could start with a passage and that people could look for flaws in logic themselves. That is not indoctrination it is being sceptical (if the "flaw" they point out isn't a flaw at all it should be pointed out as well)
2. I thought it was obvious ; A education where god is prevalent and way to important to be healthy. No offense but if you haven't been religious then you just look at it from a completely different angle.
3. Yes it prevents alot of people from becoming conscious. People don't want to take responsibility for their actions, they want god to like them. And often they base what god likes on some desert nomad book.
4. By that logic cigarettes are cool because HCN and Cocaine are also bad for your health.
5. I'm pretty sure I'm not the only one with that opinion. As demonstrated in this post alone. Besides this is a terrible argument.
6. Well wrong or right is different. But you're right : I should have said it was my opinion that your opinion is wrong.
7. Sorry if you didn't mean it like that. It just felt like that. Could have been wrong. My apologies.

 

[lrkun]

Don't use logic as the metric. Use something that one can observe. The Bible, like any holy book is well written and logically valid. If it's scientific, then it is not.

 

[SirYeen]

Don't use logic as the metric. Use something that one can observe. The Bible, like any holy book is well written and logically valid. If it's scientific, then it is not.

I'm pretty sure there will always be flaws in logic one can spot if the mind is prepared for it but good point. I'm pretty sure you'll have more knowledge then me on this subject.

 

[lrkun]

Don't use logic as the metric. Use something that one can observe. The Bible, like any holy book is well written and logically valid. If it's scientific, then it is not.

I'm pretty sure there will always be flaws in logic one can spot if the mind is prepared for it but good point. I'm pretty sure you'll have more knowledge then me on this subject.

Do you like dinosaurs? I do, is it logical that they existed? I don't know, but there is evidence that they were here on earth due to their skeletons.

By analogy that's the best way to get rid of religion. If they claim god exists, we get their holy book, research on that which they claim to have happened, if there is no proof or evidence that they are correct, then we can now apply an alternative, which focuses on education and science/engineering. Of course this can be done simultaneously.

 

[Prolescum]

1. I wouldn't be indoctrinating them because the idea of the classes wouldn't be to just learn what's wrong with the bible. Basically a lesson could start with a passage and that people could look for flaws in logic themselves. That is not indoctrination it is being sceptical (if the "flaw" they point out isn't a flaw at all it should be pointed out as well)

This is pretty much what happens in an RE class. As I've said.

2. I thought it was obvious ; A education where god is prevalent and way to important to be healthy. No offense but if you haven't been religious then you just look at it from a completely different angle.

Yes, a rational one...

3. Yes it prevents alot of people from becoming conscious. People don't want to take responsibility for their actions, they want god to like them. And often they base what god likes on some desert nomad book.

Yes, because all the religious are fundamentalist Christians :roll:

4. By that logic cigarettes are cool because HCN and Cocaine are also bad for your health.

What?

5. I'm pretty sure I'm not the only one with that opinion. As demonstrated in this post alone. Besides this is a terrible argument.
6. Well wrong or right is different. But you're right : I should have said it was my opinion that your opinion is wrong.
7. Sorry if you didn't mean it like that. It just felt like that. Could have been wrong. My apologies.

My opinion isn't wrong, it's not to your liking. That alone doesn't invalidate it.

Let me make this explicit, then. Your thread is titled how to kill religion ???, my answer is with study and the irrepressible force of time. Getting pissed off and proposing suppression of ideas or ideology only provokes further societal divides and is counter to being truly free and open.

 

[SirYeen]

1. I wouldn't be indoctrinating them because the idea of the classes wouldn't be to just learn what's wrong with the bible. Basically a lesson could start with a passage and that people could look for flaws in logic themselves. That is not indoctrination it is being sceptical (if the "flaw" they point out isn't a flaw at all it should be pointed out as well)

This is pretty much what happens in an RE class. As I've said.

2. I thought it was obvious ; A education where god is prevalent and way to important to be healthy. No offense but if you haven't been religious then you just look at it from a completely different angle.

Yes, a rational one...
Your opinion.

3. Yes it prevents alot of people from becoming conscious. People don't want to take responsibility for their actions, they want god to like them. And often they base what god likes on some desert nomad book.

Yes, because all the religious are fundamentalist Christians :roll:
I told you mine were moderate at best. I just said it could get worse.

4. By that logic cigarettes are cool because HCN and Cocaine are also bad for your health.

What?
Just because other things might be worse doesn't mean we should tolerate something bad.

5. I'm pretty sure I'm not the only one with that opinion. As demonstrated in this post alone. Besides this is a terrible argument.
6. Well wrong or right is different. But you're right : I should have said it was my opinion that your opinion is wrong.
7. Sorry if you didn't mean it like that. It just felt like that. Could have been wrong. My apologies.

My opinion isn't wrong, it's not to your liking. That alone doesn't invalidate it.
Same argument works for me.

Let me make this explicit, then. Your thread is titled how to kill religion ???, my answer is with study and the irrepressible force of time. Getting pissed off and proposing suppression of ideas or ideology only provokes further societal divides and is counter to being truly free and open.

I'm not saying getting pissed off. I'm saying that just like the evolution theory is taught, criticism should be taught. I'm pretty sure the social divide will become bigger anyway. If anything having a whole generation that studied the bible and the qur'an and decided to refute it because of evidence they learned at school sounds like a good thing to me.

 

[Prolescum]

Yes, a rational one...

Your opinion.

Feel free to show me how my view is irrational and I will reconsider my application of the word in relation to my view on this topic.

Yes, because all the religious are fundamentalist Christians :roll:

I told you mine were moderate at best. I just said it could get worse.

Yes, but you're neglecting a whole gamut of other religions with varying levels of control over action, which was my point and probably a valid reason for you to get some proper religious education.

What?

Just because other things might be worse doesn't mean we should tolerate something bad.

Oh, the bad thing that inspired Isaac Newton and Martin Luther King? Okay.

My opinion isn't wrong, it's not to your liking. That alone doesn't invalidate it.

Same argument works for me.

Mine isn't based solely upon the exclusion of information by your whim.

Let me make this explicit, then. Your thread is titled how to kill religion ???, my answer is with study and the irrepressible force of time. Getting pissed off and proposing suppression of ideas or ideology only provokes further societal divides and is counter to being truly free and open.

I'm not saying getting pissed off. I'm saying that just like the evolution theory is taught, criticism should be taught. I'm pretty sure the social divide will become bigger anyway. If anything having a whole generation that studied the bible and the qur'an and decided to refute it because of evidence they learned at school sounds like a good thing to me.

Criticism is taught, that's what I've been trying to tell you. I took the exam...

Well this is an odd on for me, because in a nutshell, we both argue that education is paramount, the point of contention being that you suggest one subject of interest is pointless so it should be banned, whereas I only say that it is a legitimate subject, and should be available were you interested in studying it. I think you should ponder it some more.

I've said the same things again and again, so I will let you get on with attempting to convince others that you're on the right path and get out of your way because there's no point repeating myself.

 

[TheFlyingBastard]

There's something ironic in saying people should be educated by not learning stuff.

 

[DeathofSpeech]

There's something ironic in saying people should be educated by not learning stuff.

[Poe's Law Alert]
Let us build a pyre out of their ignorance and burn their books... Let us not spare the rod but out of compassion for their reason, bring them to discomfort that they may confess their irrationality and think better of it, out of compassion for them and for their children. Let us bind them with chains that we may free their minds. Let us purge the reprobate from our midst that he can no more spoil the purity of rational thought. Let us root them out in every corner and in every subtle guise where they do hide to deceive and poison us. Let every man suspect his neighbor and be vigilant for signs of logical fallacy. Those who will confess and recant let them pay the penance for their transgression with the lash and let them live in the grace of reason without repercussion, but let he who carries the marks of irrational superstition upon him and you may know him by these marks, let him be cleansed in confession and then given in haste to the carbon cycle lest he have time to further transgress. Know him by his "lucky penny" and rabbit's foot. Know him by his practices. If he should wear the same pair of shorts to every Reds game without washing them in the belief that washing them will keep the Reds from winning, place his head upon a pike outside the gates of the town as an example before all others.[/Poe's Law Alert]

 

[SirYeen]

1. Isn't the default position that something should not be taught ?
2. I don't think you've proven my view is irrational either.
3. Can you give me proof of 1 religion that is pure good and should be taught ? I can give you proof of several that if taught will only poison the mind. I don't want to get into the whole interpretation thing but the thing is that the more acceptable a interpretation gets the less extremist it gets and the closer it seems to get to humanism and common sense (none of which need god).
4. You say that inspired them, can you prove it ? Can you prove they wouldn't have done the exact same thing without religion ?
5. I mean at younger age. The first bit of criticism I felt was a few years ago and I'm 17 right now. God is not Santa Claus. The idea can be much more dangerous then that and therefor it should be properly understood and be subject to scrutiny as part of our education.
6. Fine have a nice day mate .

 

[SirYeen]

There's something ironic in saying people should be educated by not learning stuff.

Actually it is more learning them in a completely different way. From a different perspective.
I could also argue if you are actually learning something from religion classes.

 

[TheFlyingBastard]

Actually it is more learning them in a completely different way. From a different perspective.
I could also argue if you are actually learning something from religion classes.

Well, it needs to be factually correct, obviously. I'm all for religious classes in that they show a part of our history and culture. But they needn't be taught as a reflection of reality.

 

[SirYeen]

Actually it is more learning them in a completely different way. From a different perspective.
I could also argue if you are actually learning something from religion classes.

Well, it needs to be factually correct, obviously. I'm all for religious classes in that they show a part of our history and culture. But they needn't be taught as a reflection of reality.

Basically what I want. I realize very well that religion has become a big part of our culture. I don't want to destroy the culture. I want people to evolve past it. And If they don't want to that is their decision. But they should at least grow up with the default position : not religious.

 

[DeathofSpeech]

There's something ironic in saying people should be educated by not learning stuff.

Actually it is more learning them in a completely different way. From a different perspective.
I could also argue if you are actually learning something from religion classes.

If you leave the library door open... eventually some of them will wander in.
Skepticism is not something you can force on someone. You can only defend it against the zealous and allow that those who will find it will find it themselves.

You can't force people to think for themselves... like everyone else.