How do I deal with anecdotes like this?

[Story]

It sounds like, you, like me, object to the word "delusion"?

Sort of, yes.

It's too simple and negative. It's like saying Hitler was evil, yes that may be true, but it doesn't exemplify anything particularly useful and over generalises all his actions into a huge category of dissimilar things.

 

[Commander Eagle]

Well I suppose my reaction is at least partly due to some form of sentiment on the part of my personal affections, but the reason why I'm less inclined to believe that they are simply lies and/or delusions is because of my own experience with the paranormal. I have a few theories based on what I've seen and heard. So I was simply interested in any other reasons that may correlate with my own.

Is there any reason to believe your own experiences to be paranormal, though?

Expressing disbelief in scientifically incredulous claims by saying the people who originated the stories were lying or insane is probably as close to the truth as you'll need to get, but I have a sort of philosophical mind and that's just too simple an explanation for it to sit with my understanding of how human beings work in general.

Why?

Let me explain my scenario...

I was being exorcised, because the exorcist did a test (basically he just read something) to see if I was possessed and during that test I began shaking madly, not in an epileptic sort of way, but simple shaking. I'm not sure if I could stop it or not, but I didn't try too, by then I believed I was possessed and apparently this was the reaction that possessed people give to the test.

I can't completely explain why I began shaking like that, but it's useful to note that I was very afraid of the exorcist and the possibility of him finding demons within me. This fear increased when I noticed myself shaking and I shook more... I was 12 years old at the time and surrounded by adults watching my every move. I had never shook like that before, but the event was a little traumatising.

This is one thing I can't completely explain, because a lot of people shake during the test without being told that they will, although some people don't shake at all, nevertheless the interesting part is coming up .

Three questions. Number one, have you seen any documented, verified accounts of people shaking even though they don't know that that's the expected reaction to the exorcism? Number two, what reaction would you expect other than shaking? Number three, have you ever heard of the term "psychosomatic response"?

That last one is especially important, particularly in the context of exorcisms.

The only people (or at least the vast majority of people) who have exorcisms performed on them are those who are deeply religious, or are children of deeply religious families (which, in this context, is pretty much the same thing). They already believe the truth of everything that they have been told. You said it yourself: you believed that you were possessed.

And belief is a powerful thing. The placebo effect applies to more than medicine. If you believe that you are possessed and that a preacher is driving the demons from your body, you will act as though you are possessed and the preacher is driving the demons from your body. This is called the psychosomatic response: the body translates its thoughts and beliefs into physical action.

So here I am shaking and having them ask me a variety of different questions and by the way when I say "ask me" I actually mean "ask the demon that's possessed me". So I'm waiting for he demons to speak, but apparently they're tongue tied... which is unfortunate for me because when the demons don't speak the exorcist beats the demon until it does and when I say "beat the demon" I actually mean "beat the me". Yes, so you'll see how a child under that kind of abuse would trick himself to believe that the voices that he knew he was making up in his head were the demons telling him to write things because they couldn't talk or whatever.

Yes, exactly.

I literally made that up on the spot. I felt bad about it for years to come, but I tricked myself into believing that maybe that was how they communicated. This led to a lot of skepticism on my part about the experiences of others. But there was another thing I couldn't explain, after faking 3 demons leaving my body, I was free to go. While walking around i felt really really light. [exageration]Literally like a feather...[/exageration] I had never felt that empty feeling of weightlessness before. I couldn't explain it. During the exorcism I was half aware that I was making everything up, but for some reason I still felt really light, as if something had left me... That feeling, which I experimented with for a while to see if I actually was lighter (I wasn't), led me to believe that maybe I wasn't making up the voices and that it was the actual way that the demons communicated with me.

So you felt different after a traumatic experience? Even if the experience in and of itself weren't so incredibly outlandish (and therefore capable of provoking almost any response that you can think of), any experience can lead to any feeling, depending on the mindset of the subject. This is hardly unbelievable.

Then came the anecdotes... about a year later.

"There were things floating in the room", "The window shook as the demons passed through it", "Things broke randomly."

Random claims made about things that I knew happened differently. I knocked things over with my hand and broke them. the window shook because I was hitting it (long story), but I could see in this person's eyes that they actually believed the things they spoke of and talked to me about it like I was supposed to remember. I don't believe these were lies in the general sense, but more of a really bad recollection of events. They remembered the wrangled curtains and the broken items and the amazing event and automatically attributed them to the exorcism and thus the demons. What made things worse was that when they told these "lies" they had someone else with bad memory ponder about it for a while and then agree that it was indeed demons passing through the window and breaking things, although not as enthusiastically, but it was like an instantly implanted memory, which is possible. Fake memories of mundane scenarios can be implanted easily by mixing them with real memories and narrating them to the victim. I think believing that you were a part of an amazing event would be very appealing to anyone's emotions and cause them to be less likely to filter out inaccuracies especially appealing inaccuracies.

Of course I could never tell whether they were all just making shit up, but their body language and the fact that the things they chose to "lie" about were half true led me to believe that they believed their "lies".

Hearing most of that you'd instantly assume that it was lies or delusions, which is true, but really too simplistic for me to sit with.

I don't get it. You just made the case for it being lies or delusions yourself. You even agreed with this case.

I think that you are misinterpreting what we mean by "delusion". A delusion is simply an erroneous belief or memory. They aren't lying - they honestly believe that they are telling the truth. They're just wrong. It isn't their fault, but that's the way it is.

 

[Commander Eagle]

It sounds like, you, like me, object to the word "delusion"?

Sort of, yes.

It's too simple and negative. It's like saying Hitler was evil, yes that may be true, but it doesn't exemplify anything particularly useful and over generalises all his actions into a huge category of dissimilar things.

Well, perhaps you would prefer the use of the word "mistaken"? They mean the same thing, at least in this context.

 

[Story]

Well I suppose my reaction is at least partly due to some form of sentiment on the part of my personal affections, but the reason why I'm less inclined to believe that they are simply lies and/or delusions is because of my own experience with the paranormal. I have a few theories based on what I've seen and heard. So I was simply interested in any other reasons that may correlate with my own.

Is there any reason to believe your own experiences to be paranormal, though?

Huh? I don't believe they were paranormal at all. I believe they have very natural explanations.

Expressing disbelief in scientifically incredulous claims by saying the people who originated the stories were lying or insane is probably as close to the truth as you'll need to get, but I have a sort of philosophical mind and that's just too simple an explanation for it to sit with my understanding of how human beings work in general.

Why?

Well basically I have a deeper understanding of human motives and mental processes which make simple explanations a little inaccurate. Not that my understanding is necessarily correct, but I just find it harder to accept simple explanations to complicated prolific occurrences such as these.

Let me explain my scenario...

I was being exorcised, because the exorcist did a test (basically he just read something) to see if I was possessed and during that test I began shaking madly, not in an epileptic sort of way, but simple shaking. I'm not sure if I could stop it or not, but I didn't try too, by then I believed I was possessed and apparently this was the reaction that possessed people give to the test.

I can't completely explain why I began shaking like that, but it's useful to note that I was very afraid of the exorcist and the possibility of him finding demons within me. This fear increased when I noticed myself shaking and I shook more... I was 12 years old at the time and surrounded by adults watching my every move. I had never shook like that before, but the event was a little traumatising.

This is one thing I can't completely explain, because a lot of people shake during the test without being told that they will, although some people don't shake at all, nevertheless the interesting part is coming up .

Three questions. Number one, have you seen any documented, verified accounts of people shaking even though they don't know that that's the expected reaction to the exorcism? Number two, what reaction would you expect other than shaking? Number three, have you ever heard of the term "psychosomatic response"?

1) To be honest I can't confirm they weren't told they would shake or even that I wasn't told, but I can confirm at least 3 people that underwent the that procedure and exhibited those results.

2) I have no idea... floating perhaps or glowing... a rainbow coming out of their belly button would be really impressive too, as would transformation into a pinecone, but they didn't happen unfortunately. (I'm kidding :lol: )

3) Yes, I'm very aware of that concept. Although I wasn't aware of it's name. Thanks!

That last one is especially important, particularly in the context of exorcisms.

The only people (or at least the vast majority of people) who have exorcisms performed on them are those who are deeply religious, or are children of deeply religious families (which, in this context, is pretty much the same thing). They already believe the truth of everything that they have been told. You said it yourself: you believed that you were possessed.

And belief is a powerful thing. The placebo effect applies to more than medicine. If you believe that you are possessed and that a preacher is driving the demons from your body, you will act as though you are possessed and the preacher is driving the demons from your body. This is called the psychosomatic response: the body translates its thoughts and beliefs into physical action.

Yes, this is very true. I was actually narrating what happened to me from a psychosomatic perspective. I didn't mean to sound as if I believed it. I don't... and I only half believed it at the time.

I literally made that up on the spot. I felt bad about it for years to come, but I tricked myself into believing that maybe that was how they communicated. This led to a lot of skepticism on my part about the experiences of others. But there was another thing I couldn't explain, after faking 3 demons leaving my body, I was free to go. While walking around i felt really really light. [exageration]Literally like a feather...[/exageration] I had never felt that empty feeling of weightlessness before. I couldn't explain it. During the exorcism I was half aware that I was making everything up, but for some reason I still felt really light, as if something had left me... That feeling, which I experimented with for a while to see if I actually was lighter (I wasn't), led me to believe that maybe I wasn't making up the voices and that it was the actual way that the demons communicated with me.

So you felt different after a traumatic experience? Even if the experience in and of itself weren't so incredibly outlandish (and therefore capable of provoking almost any response that you can think of), any experience can lead to any feeling, depending on the mindset of the subject. This is hardly unbelievable.

No it isn't, but to me it's fascinating how it led me to believe in my own deception. Giving the circumstances...

Then came the anecdotes... about a year later.

"There were things floating in the room", "The window shook as the demons passed through it", "Things broke randomly."

Random claims made about things that I knew happened differently. I knocked things over with my hand and broke them. the window shook because I was hitting it (long story), but I could see in this person's eyes that they actually believed the things they spoke of and talked to me about it like I was supposed to remember. I don't believe these were lies in the general sense, but more of a really bad recollection of events. They remembered the wrangled curtains and the broken items and the amazing event and automatically attributed them to the exorcism and thus the demons. What made things worse was that when they told these "lies" they had someone else with bad memory ponder about it for a while and then agree that it was indeed demons passing through the window and breaking things, although not as enthusiastically, but it was like an instantly implanted memory, which is possible. Fake memories of mundane scenarios can be implanted easily by mixing them with real memories and narrating them to the victim. I think believing that you were a part of an amazing event would be very appealing to anyone's emotions and cause them to be less likely to filter out inaccuracies especially appealing inaccuracies.

Of course I could never tell whether they were all just making shit up, but their body language and the fact that the things they chose to "lie" about were half true led me to believe that they believed their "lies".

Hearing most of that you'd instantly assume that it was lies or delusions, which is true, but really too simplistic for me to sit with.

I don't get it. You just made the case for it being lies or delusions yourself. You even agreed with this case.

Yeah... that was actually my point. Only that "delusions" just wasn't enough of a description for me.

 

[Commander Eagle]

Okay, I think I understand your position better now. To be honest, I think we agree on this, but you just don't want to use the same vocabulary.

 

[Dragan Glas]

Greetings Story,

I've recently accepted atheism and I'm a bit concerned in regards to people's beliefs on magic, witchcraft and demons.

I was exorcised in my theistic life and was led to believe that there were demons within me. I understand now that I made up the voices in my head telling me to say things because the adults around me all believed that I was possessed. I can't explain all of the things that occurred, but I am at ease in assuming that it was mostly delusional.

What I have problems with however is other people's stories of possession. These "other people" were adults and, unlike me, they made a variety of amazing claims during their exorcism (I needn't elaborate) one person I know vomited a huge sponge like object. I didn't see this myself, but it was confirmed by a bunch of different friends.

Another adult person I know underwent a completely painless exorcism and had her entire character change afterward. (Although I can see this being explainable)

I've heard from a variety of different friends that 2 people they knew came crying, emotionally distraught, claiming that they were raped by an invisible entity. I didn't know those 2 people, but about 5 people I know knew them and they all told me this same story from talking to them personally. 2 of them thought it was hilarious.

I can't really put my finger on whether these are lies, delusions or if there is some sort of scientific explanation that these bizarre scenarios could have.

The "sponge" incident - if "true" - could have been (white) foam, which can happen on a empty stomach and being mistaken for "sponge". Of course, there's also the possibility of it having been faked - like "ectoplasm" used by fraudulent spiritualist mediums.

The personality change would not be uncommon - a more complete form similar to your "lightness of being" experience. Even those struck by lightning can undergo a complete personality change and become a different person living a different life.

The women's claims to being raped by invisible entities are most likely examples of incubi attacks associated with sleep paralysis

See also the following article:
Are some people more susceptible to incubus and succubus attacks?

Please note that in posting these, I'm not suggesting that these entities are real in the physical sense - most likely they are from the unconscious mind as, throughout human history, these entities have been said to be dark elves/"black" faeries (pre-Christian Celtic Europe/including Ireland), demons (Mediaeval) or aliens (UFO abductions).

Also, under the General Scepticism forum, there are suggested reading for Critical Thinking, which you may find of interest/help.

Kindest regards,

James

 

[Story]

The "sponge" incident - if "true" - could have been (white) foam, which can happen on a empty stomach and being mistaken for "sponge". Of course, there's also the possibility of it having been faked - like "ectoplasm" used by fraudulent spiritualist mediums.

Makes sense, that's good enough for me. Any sauce btw?

The personality change would not be uncommon - a more complete form similar to your "lightness of being" experience. Even those struck by lightning can undergo a complete personality change and become a different person living a different life.

Okay, but how do we know that lightning isn't souls that are trying to find new bodies! You should THINK before you post. This should have been evidence.

The women's claims to being raped by invisible entities are most likely examples of incubi attacks associated with sleep paralysis

See also the following article:
Are some people more susceptible to incubus and succubus attacks?

Yeah I figured that could be the case. It was a woman and a man btw >.> Room mates...

That story scared the fuck out of me when I was younger. I made sure I kept up with my prayers.

Please note that in posting these, I'm not suggesting that these entities are real in the physical sense - most likely they are from the unconscious mind as, throughout human history, these entities have been said to be dark elves/"black" faeries (pre-Christian Celtic Europe/including Ireland), demons (Mediaeval) or aliens (UFO abductions).

Yes actually I used to get Sleep Paralysis a lot when I was younger, I used to always assume it was monsters trying to hurt me, but later when I stopped being afraid of them I learned that I was simply paralysed. I could never explain it till now.

Also, under the General Scepticism forum, there are suggested reading for Critical Thinking, which you may find of interest/help.

Kindest regards,

I'll check it out.

 

[Dragan Glas]

Greetings,

The personality change would not be uncommon - a more complete form similar to your "lightness of being" experience. Even those struck by lightning can undergo a complete personality change and become a different person living a different life.

Okay, but how do we know that lightning isn't souls that are trying to find new bodies! You should THINK before you post. This should have been evidence.

Would MPD (Multiple-Personality Disorder) be preferable as evidence? There was a famous case, Sybil, (which I read about years ago).

Please note that in posting these, I'm not suggesting that these entities are real in the physical sense - most likely they are from the unconscious mind as, throughout human history, these entities have been said to be dark elves/"black" faeries (pre-Christian Celtic Europe/including Ireland), demons (Mediaeval) or aliens (UFO abductions).

Yes actually I used to get Sleep Paralysis a lot when I was younger, I used to always assume it was monsters trying to hurt me, but later when I stopped being afraid of them I learned that I was simply paralysed. I could never explain it till now.

Many years ago, as a teenager, I was asleep in bed and "awoke" to find myself paralysed, whilst I could hear the sound of heavy breathing coming from somewhere to my right (in my mind it seemed to be coming from *someone* lurking behind a boulder to my right - even though the right-hand side of my bed was against the wall).

This *lurker* then slowly came out from behind the boulder - he was in the shadows and I could not seem to be able to discern him - and approached me from my right (as impossible as that was given what I said about my bed's juxtaposition to the wall!) as I lay paralyzed in the bed. On reaching me, *his* heavy breathing stopped, my eyes opened (I really did awaken) and I was able to move.

I realized immediately that the *lurker* was my consciousness approaching full wakefulness - the "heavy-breathing" was my own, which my hearing had picked up (hearing is the last sense to fail and the first to recover).

Kindest regards,

James

 

[Story]

Would MPD (Multiple-Personality Disorder) be preferable as evidence? There was a famous case,

Lol, I was kidding about what I said.

Yes actually I used to get Sleep Paralysis a lot when I was younger, I used to always assume it was monsters trying to hurt me, but later when I stopped being afraid of them I learned that I was simply paralysed. I could never explain it till now.
Many years ago, as a teenager, I was asleep in bed and "awoke" to find myself paralysed, whilst I could hear the sound of heavy breathing coming from somewhere to my right (in my mind it seemed to be coming from *someone* lurking behind a boulder to my right - even though the right-hand side of my bed was against the wall).

This *lurker* then slowly came out from behind the boulder - he was in the shadows and I could not seem to be able to discern him - and approached me from my right (as impossible as that was given what I said about my bed's juxtaposition to the wall!) as I lay paralyzed in the bed. On reaching me, *his* heavy breathing stopped, my eyes opened (I really did awaken) and I was able to move.

I realized immediately that the *lurker* was my consciousness approaching full wakefulness - the "heavy-breathing" was my own, which my hearing had picked up (hearing is the last sense to fail and the first to recover).

Kindest regards,

James

Weirdly enough, during my sleep paralysis, at a young age, I always thought that I was able to move, but that I was too afraid to do so. During one such episode, I must have fallen back asleep during it and engaged in a very elaborate fight with the demon. Near the end of that battle I took his head and slammed it's neck against the side of the bed post and snapped it all the way back. Unfortunately for me though, demons are invertebrates so the fight raged on for a little while longer.

 

[DeathofSpeech]

Hmm, found my list of reasons not to be credulous, though not all of these will help you (but I found all of them to be very interesting):

On the many security vulnerabilities and biases we have in our brains (including quirk of our memory, as well as quirk of what we consider a "hit" for paranormal

I'll give you an illustration.
I'm usually a pretty skeptical guy... actually I'm an asshole, or so I'm told.

I was doing some work in the basement of my parent's home and went up to the kitchen to have a sit down and a cold drink.
When I headed back toward the basement steps I heard someone running up the steps. I stood at the top of the stair and looked down and there was no one there.
I had not quite reached the point that I was willing to call myself an atheist yet at the time and I recall the thoughts that were running through my head.

After a few moments one of my sisters hollered at me to check her shoes in the drier.

I had heard shoes in the drier a thousand times and on that one occasion, my brain took me to the carnival fun house.
If I had to guess, I think it may have been the anticipation of consequences for the "evil thoughts" I was having about the rationality of god, et al.
After having been programmed to expect the ghost of Wrath-mas, past, present and future for the crime of doubt,
I think I just expected that something invisible running up the stairs at me was an inevitability.
Even after I knew the cause, I had trouble separating the emotional creepy reaction from reality for several hours

The brain is a silly place. :lol:

 

[TheSkepticalHeretic]

@ the OP

Sounds like a mix of three things.

Delusion: the mind forcing the believer to believe through the desperate want to believe, also possibly tied to a chemical imbalance

Lies: self explanitory.

Repression: In some of these instances there could be traumatic repression involved, especially in the cases of the "invisible entity rape". It very well could have been actual rape in which the rapist was a trusted entity in the person's life and abused the victim. That victim, being unable to cope with the intense betrayal of trust, mentally replaces the trusted person's visage with that of a demon.

The third is a documented occurance from the Archdiocese in Boston. One child was convinced he had been raped by demons when on inspection it was the Deacon of the neighborhood church.