HIV/AIDS Denialism

[c0nc0rdance]

With so much cerebral horsepower arrayed in one virtual place, it would be a shame if I didn't ask for help combating this particular bit of dangerous pseudoscience: HIV/AIDS denialism.

These folks make it sound like we are as sure of this virus's existence as we are of the mighty Texas Jackalope. As a result, the susceptible audience of low IQ homeopaths are out there hooking electrodes up to their wrists to correct their voltage imbalance. While this might be chlorine for the gene pool, I foolishly try to present a reasonable alternative that perhaps someone trained in medicine should dispense the medical advice.

I'm not asking anyone to be an expert in virology or medicine, just to call these guys on their BS, and report ridiculous claims or medical advice that involves quartz crystals or stripped AC mains wires back to the group.

This one isn't purely academic. These people are causing deaths. HIV is real, there is no reasonable dispute of the facts, and there is no vast global conspiracy (except the one with the Masonics and Grays).

Danke. Tak. Thanks.
c0nc0rdance.

 

[Ozymandyus]

I am completely unaware of this phenomenon. It seems reasonable that if they think its harmless they should volunteer to be injected with HIV and then we can just wait them out and point to them as undeniable evidence. But then again, they would spread it to their sexual partners - but thats what you get for having sex with an idiot who got injected with HIV.

Okay not really a solution. I think the vast majority of people take HIV very seriously and idiots like this don't have much effect on them. At least I would like to think so. Best we can do is educate and show statistics that HIV and AIDS have a clear link. Throw studies at them, show AIDS rates in highly HIV infected communities, and most people will not doubt it.

The only reason that someone could be convinced at all is that there is a popular conception that HIV is the definitive early form of AIDS, which is admittedly not true. People that learn that is not true are susceptible to other sorts of misinformation, so be sure that you know that when you are talking to people about it.

 

[Aught3]

How about the South African government? There have been various statements about showering after sex, cucumbers, and vitamin tablets helping to prevent HIV infection or cure AIDS. Extraordinarily dangerous and irresponsible in a society with such a high prevalence of the disease.

 

[WolfAU]

I have also never heard of any organised group that denies the existance of the HIV virus.

To try to contribute as best I can without knowing much about what these people claim. Using this as what I am assuming you mean by the term.

I can only think to mention Koch's Postulates which states that if a causative agent can be isolated, by taking it from one organism and injecting it into another organism, which then goes on to cause the disease it has largely been proven to be the cause.

Also I find it hard to believe that one of the most heavily researched diseases of modern times that this simple method has never been applied to testing it. Furthermore I believe it is fairly widely known how the virus attacks the immune system and furthermore, how issues like contaminated blood and other methods of transmission cause it. If it was a non-viral causative agent we would expect to see a different methods of transmission.

 

[c0nc0rdance]

There's an incredibly active community of these people, and some of them ARE scientists, some are alternative health care people. The leader of the pack is Peter Duesberg, a fairly famous scientist at UC Berkeley. They can also quote 4 different Nobel Prize winners who express doubts about HIV.

If you want to learn more, try:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=X_N4zgjF0K0
Which is the House of Numbers Trailer. It's a recent movie in select theaters in the US, Canada and Europe. The logic is very seductive, just like in Expelled, and the production values are good. It's funded by a lot of the same people, in fact. They want to blame the victims, make AIDS a disease of the immoral, the dirty, the ungodly.

How their tactic works, and tell me if this sounds familiar:
1. Ask a lot of detailed questions.
2. Demand the highest standard of proof.
3. Demand that the answers be supported by evidence immediately.
4. Exploit any uncertainty or weakness as evidence for a false dichotomy position.

It's the questioning, hole-poking methodology used by ID/creationists. Is it a coincidence? NOT AT ALL. Philip Johnson, author of the Wedge Strategy, and 'founder' of the Disco Inst. is ALSO an AIDS denialist, and a member of the "Scientists for the Reappraisal of the HIV/AIDS Hypothesis"

I think, in response, we should recognize that ID is nothing more than "EVOLUTION DENIALISM" and that both movements are using the same tactics for the same concealed reasons.

I can post some websites, but if you Google "HIV/AIDS Dissidents" or "Reappraising AIDS", you'll get a few hundred thousand hits.

c0nc0rdance.

 

[c0nc0rdance]

How about the South African government? There have been various statements about showering after sex, cucumbers, and vitamin tablets helping to prevent HIV infection or cure AIDS. Extraordinarily dangerous and irresponsible in a society with such a high prevalence of the disease.

In fact, Duesberg, the Perth Group, and a doctor named Rasnick and the vitamin company owner, Rath have all advised President Mbeki (resigned 2008) to refuse antiviral medications being donated by US Pharma companies for distribution to the women, children, and men suffering and dying of more aggressive and virulent forms of HIV than the US has ever seen. Instead, Mbeki gave Rath permission to use vitamin supplements only, as an involuntary clinical trial that violates international medical ethics. The High Court later ordered the trials stopped, but the damage has been done. These denialists have real blood on their hands.

Superstitious thinking in Africa which holds that sex with a virgin will CURE AIDS has led to a sharp increase in sex slavery, rape, and child rape. If ever education and medical support could save lives, it's there and now.

Closer to home, there's also the story of Eliza Jane, daughter of Christine Maggiore, a wealthy fashionista. Some of you may remember this one. Christine was infected at the time Eliza was born, and passed the virus on to her daughter. She was aligned with the denialists, so she refused treatment for herself and her baby before, during, and after birth. The little girl died of AIDS at age 4, and the family and denialist community got a denialist VETERINARY pathologist to write a counter-response to the LA Coroner's findings. They took it to court. Christine recently died in her 40's from pneumonia. Was this a wake-up call to denialists? No, they insist that the little girl died from an allergic response to holistic medicine (darkly funny, no?). Christine, they claim, was perfectly healthy but developed a RARE form of pneumocystis pneumonia, like Jim Henson did.

I see this group as a real threat to people's lives, if only their own, but I am realistic that it will be hard or impossible to change their minds. The best I can hope for is to get the message out that what they are arguing is junk science.

c0nc0rdance.

 

[Spase]

As a couple people have said this is a surprisingly real group. Duesberg was the original AIDS denier who put forth the hypothesis that it was being caused by lifestyle choices that these gay men were involved in. Specifically he blamed the use of "poppers." To be clear, the claim they make is that HIV is harmless and is unconnected to AIDS.

The theory actually picked up a bit of momentum because when you're diagnosed with a terminal untreatable illness hearing that all you have to do is lay off the drugs and live healthily is pretty attractive. What really wrecked Duesberg in the eyes of most AIDS researchers of the time was when hemophiliacs in the north east were reported having it. Suddenly you had a completely unconnected group of people that have no history of drug use and are not gay infected.

Duesberg has maintained to this day that the Koch test (as mentioned by WolfAU) has never been shown to be positive... because nobody is willing to inject someone with HIV in a lab and then wait to see if they get AIDS. It has however been corroborated by so much evidence it's ridiculous.

When these people went to the South African government and convinced the leadership, and specifically the president, that AZT (the leading anti-retroviral of the time) was a western pharmaceutical conspiracy being put forward by racist elements wanting to convince Africans that it is their over sexualization that was to blame for their disease. I never realized that was a racist view of Africans but it seems the idea was sold to them. Some of the people involved benefited enormously selling vitamins etc. I can't think of anything to say about this whole incident except that these people are murderers. AZT is given to pregnant women to vastly reduce the chance their babies are born infected. These people who blocked AZT's use in South Africa sentenced thousands of children to be born HIV positive.

I'm not going to get carried away here.. When I first heard about all this I was shocked. The whole thing pisses me off. I can try to put up some of the proof that HIV causes AIDS...

 

[c0nc0rdance]

I've made a few YouTube videos deflating the HIV/AIDS Denialists favorite lies and half-truths, and I've got a full-blown conspiracy riled up. Check out the following link

http://forums.aidsmythexposed.com/main-forum/5684-google-page-ranking-perth-group-ra-general.html

The comments are hilarious, as is the level of intelligence. I thought the tactics they used were sort of sloppy and accidental, but here they are planning to use Godwin's Law in a first exchange.

Anybody who wants to get involved in stopping these people, let me know. They scare the bejeezus out of me.

 

[Aught3]

That was a good vid, I thought it was quite technical in places. I'm wondering what non-scientist types thought of it?

 

[UnsafeAlpine]

I've recently been having trouble with these Deniers. I find it incredibly sad that they would throw out all scientific data in favor of conspiracy theories.

 

[Finger]

I hear that. One guy just told me to look up a book written by this woman. A philosophy and theology major from "Next Life" Collage. Oh lawl

 

[Sir Pwn4lot]

The Catholic Church is either evil (we already know this lol), or in HIV denial.

They refuse to give contraception to Africans, even though it could save millions, probably billions of lives.

Classic example of theistic immorality.

 

[Squirrelywrath2]

The scary thing is that we have researched HIV so very thoroughly that we have identified specific antigens on celular membranes used by the virus to transport itself into a cell, and populations of invdividuals without these antigens for whom HIV/AIDS is extremely rare or non existant.
That seems sufficient proof to me? Just google "immune to HIV" if you want to check this stuff out.

As for the "chlorine in the gene pool" comment, I think that a virus with the kind of long drawn out etiology of HIV, where death takes years and may not occur, prolonging time to pass the virus on, where these stupid people may not necessarily make unappealing sexual partners.... that this might not work lol

anyone for starting an Ebola deniars association instead?

 

[leafybean]

The issue I have with AIDS denialists is not that they reject the concept of the HIV virus, it is that they have no clear alternate explanation of how people that should have at least some immune function go from full T-cell activity to none.

At least then they would have some basis to test their ideas on. :facepalm:

 

[Shalashar]

Scientology can also be added to the list of groups who deny HIV/AIDS.

One of their celebrity adherents, Jenna Elfman (yeah I had to look it up too) stated back around 1999 in an interview with The Daily Radar website that "AIDS is a state of mind, not a disease". This was her reason for refusing to give an autograph for an AIDS awareness fundraiser.

Mind you, Scientology as a whole disagrees with the concept of germ theory, preferring to blame pretty much all physical ailments/disease on mental traumas.

 

[paradigm667]

The issue I have with AIDS denialists is not that they reject the concept of the HIV virus, it is that they have no clear alternate explanation of how people that should have at least some immune function go from full T-cell activity to none.

At least then they would have some basis to test their ideas on. :facepalm:

Hi, please don't castigate me. I don't want to bash anyone here for their defense of the HIV=AIDS views. I happen to be an AIDS dissident. I also happen to be:

-An atheist who cannot stand creationists
-A lover of science and the scientific method
-A proponent of nutrition
-Against quackery like faith healing, hypo-therapy, reiki, and pseudoscience in general.


Having said that, I think it would bring an interesting mix to this discussion to actually have someone who is an HIV=AIDS dissident. I am quite well versed on this matter. I am also a student in the field of medicine, I plan on attending a Naturopathic institution to become an ND in the near future.

I just want to make a few things clear. The general position of almost any AIDS dissident is not that people MUST not take the antiviral drugs, or that persons who test HIV absolutely must not have access to the medicines they believe will help them. That is never the case. Instead the idea is the following:

Allow persons to have the option to do with their body what they wish. It is very Draconian that we have AZT, a drug that was scrapped as a monotherapy drug (doses of 1500mg/day) because it was far too toxic for adults that are HIV+, and yet this same drug is precisely what is recommended for HIV+ mothers or newborns. If a mother refuses to treat her baby, it is her right. The state does not own you. It is not considered abuse when we know that AZT usage is not something that is side effect free. In fact, it can be extremely damaging.

That's just one small example of some of the reasons that AIDS dissidents are actively speaking out against the established dogma.

I would very much like to have a sensible discussion with you folks. I won't lie that I do not intend to change your minds, of course I do. But I will also say that I am not interested in getting angry or being insulting. I do think that I have noticed a trend over the years and that is that most people try and label AIDS "denialists" in such a way that discussion is impossible. It becomes an emotional subject, rather than one based on reason and evidence.

And I know that all the words I am typing right now are looked at as some kind of rhetoric to "trick" you into believing this "crazy conspiracy theory." This isn't the case. All I intend is this and only this:

-To understand how and why you think what you think.
and
-For you to understand how and why I think what I think.

For the record. There IS an AIDS conspiracy theory, and it is in the following form:
"AIDS was created in a lab in Ft. Detrick Maryland, created to kill off the blacks and gays. It was made during the special cancer virus program of the US military and NIH during the 60's and 70's."

-This is a true conspiracy theory with no substance. AIDS dissidents do NOT advocate this notion. I certainly do not as well. And I think often times that mistake is made and dissidents are lumped into the same categories of those kinds of folks. This is not something I or most any other dissident advocates.

Anyway, my intent is to demonstrate to you guys, that really sensible, well-versed, well-educated, informed, intelligent people are AIDS dissidents, and it's OK to disagree on this subject. We don't need to be hostile. Lets try and have a discussion, what do you say?

As far as the question of "If HIV doesn't cause AIDS, what does?"
Well, I would be more than happy to discuss my views on this, with evidence, but before I start posting any more, I just wanted to see what the general consensus is here. Do you guys want to have such a discussion or should I refrain from posting about this issue?

Look forward to the response. Peace.

 

[IrBubble]

I want to know if you believe that the HIV virus causes aids. I think the general concensus here is that it does.

 

[ImprobableJoe]

Having said that, I think it would bring an interesting mix to this discussion to actually have someone who is an HIV=AIDS dissident. I am quite well versed on this matter. I am also a student in the field of medicine, I plan on attending a Naturopathic institution to become an ND in the near future.

So you plan on getting a degree in fake medicine? So much for the skepticism... :lol:

Feel free to post, but you're going to get some pretty strong postings against you, more likely than not. For instance, you're claiming that you're not a conspiracy theorist, and then you come out with a conspiracy theory relating to AZT. How do you reconcile the two positions?

 

[Aught3]

Yeah go for it, but you won't be treated nicely just because you ask. Everyone is still going to write what they would normally write.

Btw, what's an ND? Non-doctor? If it's anything to do with "nutrition" or "nutritionist" I'm already unimpressed.

 

[ImprobableJoe]

Btw, what's an ND? Non-doctor? If it's anything to do with "nutrition" or "nutritionist" I'm already unimpressed.

It seems to be a nurse practitioner, with a focus on "alternative" remedies that don't do anything.