Hiler as an Atheist... (img heavy)

[JBeukema]

Would an atheist issue the rallying cry of 'God with Us'?

(Worn by all branches of the Nazi army except for the Waffen SS)

Or have church upon his coins?

(notice that the Nazi Swaztica is beneath the Christian cross


Or write in Mein Kampf:

"Hence today I believe that I am acting in accordance with the will of the Almighty Creator: by defending myself against the Jew, I am fighting for the work of the Lord."

Or speak the words

"My feelings as a Christian points me to my Lord and Savior as a fighter. It points me to the man who once in loneliness, surrounded by a few followers, recognized these Jews for what they were and summoned men to fight against them and who, God's truth! was greatest not as a sufferer but as a fighter. In boundless love as a Christian and as a man I read through the passage which tells us how the Lord at last rose in His might and seized the scourge to drive out of the Temple the brood of vipers and adders. How terrific was His fight for the world against the Jewish poison. To-day, after two thousand years, with deepest emotion I recognize more profoundly than ever before the fact that it was for this that He had to shed His blood upon the Cross. As a Christian I have no duty to allow myself to be cheated, but I have the duty to be a fighter for truth and justice... And if there is anything which could demonstrate that we are acting rightly it is the distress that daily grows. For as a Christian I have also a duty to my own people.

-Adolf Hitler, in a speech on 12 April 1922 (Norman H. Baynes, ed. The Speeches of Adolf Hitler, April 1922-August 1939, Vol. 1 of 2, pp. 19-20, Oxford University Press, 1942)

??

Hitler idolized Martin Luther (the same Martin Luther who led the Reformation, called for the death of the Jew, and declared Reason the enemy of faith)

Yet he dealt mostly with the Catholics

The Christians liked Hitler

(xtians hate atheists)

His men had Christian weddings

(Hitler is in the front row)

Would an atheisy have his people swear ON GOD their loyalty?

(Hitler Youth)

Much more here

 

[scikidus]

Nice collection. I will keep this thread in mind the next time someone pulls out that line.

 

[theatheistguy]

Awesome post, which makes ruining it all the more painful.

The following are quotes from the man himself, but in response to the above uses of the cross and god, there is no easier way to unite and control a people than religion, and any religion that would have continued under Hitler would have been worshiping him. However, even if Hitler was an Atheist (which I doubt) he did not do anything because of his Atheism, whereas religious wars and murders have been religiously motivated.

Night of 11th-12th July, 1941

"National Socialism and religion cannot exist together....
"The heaviest blow that ever struck humanity was the coming of Christianity. Bolshevism is Christianity's illegitimate child. Both are inventions of the Jew. The deliberate lie in the matter of religion was introduced into the world by Christianity....
"Let it not be said that Christianity brought man the life of the soul, for that evolution was in the natural order of things."

10th October, 1941, midday

"Christianity is a rebellion against natural law, a protest against nature. Taken to its logical extreme, Christianity would mean the systematic cultivation of the human failure."

14th October, 1941, midday

"The best thing is to let Christianity die a natural death.... When understanding of the universe has become widespread... Christian doctrine will be convicted of absurdity....
"Christianity has reached the peak of absurdity.... And that's why someday its structure will collapse....
"...the only way to get rid of Christianity is to allow it to die little by little....
"Christianity <is> the liar....
"We'll see to it that the Churches cannot spread abroad teachings in conflict with the interests of the State."

19th October, 1941, night

"The reason why the ancient world was so pure, light and serene was that it knew nothing of the two great scourges: the pox and Christianity."

21st October, 1941, midday

"Originally, Christianity was merely an incarnation of Bolshevism, the destroyer....
"The decisive falsification of Jesus' <who he asserts many times was never a Jew> doctrine was the work of St.Paul. He gave himself to this work... for the purposes of personal exploitation....
"Didn't the world see, carried on right into the Middle Ages, the same old system of martyrs, tortures, faggots? Of old, it was in the name of Christianity. Today, it's in the name of Bolshevism. Yesterday the instigator was Saul: the instigator today, Mardochai. Saul was changed into St.Paul, and Mardochai into Karl Marx. By exterminating this pest, we shall do humanity a service of which our soldiers can have no idea."

13th December, 1941, midnight

"Christianity is an invention of sick brains: one could imagine nothing more senseless, nor any more indecent way of turning the idea of the Godhead into a mockery.... <here insults people who believe transubstantiation>....
"When all is said, we have no reason to wish that the Italians and Spaniards should free themselves from the drug of Christianity. Let's be the only people who are immunised against the disease."

14th December, 1941, midday

"Kerrl, with noblest of intentions, wanted to attempt a synthesis between National Socialism and Christianity. I don't believe the thing's possible, and I see the obstacle in Christianity itself....
"Pure Christianity-- the Christianity of the catacombs-- is concerned with translating Christian doctrine into facts. It leads quite simply to the annihilation of mankind. It is merely whole-hearted Bolshevism, under a tinsel of metaphysics."

9th April, 1942, dinner

"There is something very unhealthy about Christianity."

27th February, 1942, midday

"It would always be disagreeable for me to go down to posterity as a man who made concessions in this field. I realize that man, in his imperfection, can commit innumerable errors-- but to devote myself deliberately to errors, that is something I cannot do. I shall never come personally to terms with the Christian lie."
"Our epoch in the next 200 years will certainly see the end of the disease of Christianity.... My regret will have been that I couldn't... behold <its demise>."

 

[DarwinsOtherTheory]

Well obviously he wasn't a "real" christian.

 

[GoodKat]

Atheistguy, source?

 

[theatheistguy]

Atheistguy, source?

Hitler's Secret Conversations 1941-1944 aka Hitler's Table Talk 1941-1944, these were recorded by Hitler's secretary.

 

[Exmortis]

I really do not care if hitler was an atheist. And I really don't think you guys should dwell on it either.

This is simply a sabortage tactic used by theists, it has no direct effect on the proof.

 

[theatheistguy]

I really do not care if hitler was an atheist. And I really don't think you guys should dwell on it either.

This is simply a sabortage tactic used by theists, it has no direct effect on the proof.

I don't mind either way because if he was a theist and everything he said about 'doing gods work' is true then it's a blow against them, but if he was an atheist then fine, but he didn't exterminate the Jews, gypsies, disabled, etc because of his atheism.

 

[e2iPi]

I don't mind either way because if he was a theist and everything he said about 'doing gods work' is true then it's a blow against them, but if he was an atheist then fine, but he didn't exterminate the Jews, gypsies, disabled, etc because of his atheism.

Hitler and Nazi Germany is a blow to theism regardless of Hitler's personal views. Religion and faith were both tools used by Hitler and the Nazi regime and used the justify their actions. The very fact that Christian men and women were quite willing to go along with Hitler's persecution and eventual slaughter of the Jewish people is a very good indicator that the Christian faith does not offer any true moral guidance.

-1

 

[theatheistguy]

Hitler and Nazi Germany is a blow to theism regardless of Hitler's personal views. Religion and faith were both tools used by Hitler and the Nazi regime and used the justify their actions. The very fact that Christian men and women were quite willing to go along with Hitler's persecution and eventual slaughter of the Jewish people is a very good indicator that the Christian faith does not offer any true moral guidance.

Once again, agreed =]

 

[Markio44]

Hitler's goal was to create (via elimination) a master race. I'm not sure where atheism even comes in to play here. Even if Hitler wanted his "perfect race" to be atheist it doesn't make atheism evil. It makes Hitler evil.

 

[SouthPaw]

the main point is still, most nazis WERE (and some surviving ones still are) Catholics

 

[atheismforthewin]

Well obviously he wasn't a "real" christian.

:lol: :lol:

perfect. Thanks Jkbeukema

 

[Witalian]

Hitler and Nazi Germany is a blow to theism regardless of Hitler's personal views. Religion and faith were both tools used by Hitler and the Nazi regime and used the justify their actions. The very fact that Christian men and women were quite willing to go along with Hitler's persecution and eventual slaughter of the Jewish people is a very good indicator that the Christian faith does not offer any true moral guidance.

-1

Yea, when the theists point out how evil are the ateist societys like nazi germany, they conviniently forget that those societies were not actulay atheist. In the case of the soviet union their society was probably one of the most religious on the planet. The russian people under the empire were mostly backward ignorant illiterate and devout. They were indeed property of the feodals., and a guy like Stalin just couldn't help it but to take advantage of them.
And Hitler may have not been religious, but the soldiers who were actualy doing the atrocities were.They belived that they are on a devine mission, and that god is with them. The atrocities were not inspired by religion but were justifyed by it.
Those things can not hapen in real atheist society, because there will not be a devine justification.
The cults of personality toward Hitler and Stalin were quasi religions in their own right.

 

[theyounghistorian77]

Heh, looks like i got long beaten to the creation of such a thread discussing this very topic. Now whilst it may be fun to bandy around Hitler quotations, as i have argued elsewhere, trying to use Hitler's words alone is meaningless as he is just a propagandist who said many different things to different people. It is only when his words match his deeds like his racist words that are backed by his corresponding deeds that we can put any weight on them whatsoever. Hitler is on record for saying "We don't want war; we want peace, and internal peace as well", now who here is going to argue that he was a champion of peace? Hopefully nobody.

That being said i will offer two points for discussion in this post.

The first is the following Mein Kampf quote, which i don't think you will find on too many atheist websites....

"Auch das Christentum konnte sich nicht damit begnà¼gen, seinen eigenen Altar aufzubauen, sondern mußte zwangs-läufig zur Zerstà¶rung der heidnischen Altäre schreiten. Nur aus dieser fanatischen Unduldsamkeit heraus konnte sich der apodiktische Glauben bilden; diese Unduldsamkeit ist sogar die unbedingte Voraussetzung fà¼r ihn. [...] Der einzelne mag heute schmerzlich feststellen, daß in die viel freiere antike Welt mit dem Erscheinen des Chri-stentums der erste geistige Terror gekommen ist, er wird die Tatsache aber nicht bestreiten kà¶nnen, daß die Welt seitdem von diesem Zwange bedrängt und beherrscht wird, und daß man Zwang nur wieder durch Zwang bricht und Terror nur mit Terror. Erst dann kann aufbauend ein neuer Zustand geschaffen werden." -Adolf Hitler, "Mein Kampf (untranslated)", p506-7

Here's a translation, With assistance from "Irokesengranate"

"Christianity too couldn't make do with building its own altar, but necessarily had to lead to the destruction of the pagan altars. Only out of this fanatic intolerance the apodictic faith/belief could arise; this intolerance is in fact the imperative/unconditional requirement for it. [...] The individual might painfully realize today, that the first spiritual terror came into the much freer ancient world with the arrival of christianity, he wouldn't be able to dispute the fact that since then the world is bothered/presses and ruled by this force/compulsion, and that force can only be broken by force and terror only [broken] by terror. Only then a new state [as in condition/status] can be created building on that."

The second thing is what you find in the Trevor-roper edition of the "Table talks", the one that "theatheistguy" quoted from earlier.

It is full of Mistranslations, see the "German Studies Review, Vol. 26, No. 3 (Oct., 2003), pp. 561-576." for more details

I'll give you an example, At the conclusion of a two-page entry for the afternoon of 27 February 1942, the Trevor-Roper text reads as follows:

"If my presence on earth is providential, I owe it to a superior will. But I owe nothing to the Church that trafficks in the salvation of souls, and I find it really too cruel. I admit that one cannot impose one's will by force, but I have a horror of people who enjoy inflicting sufferings on others' bodies and, tyranny upon others' souls. Our epoch will certainly see the end of the disease of Christianity. It will last another hundred years, two hundred years perhaps. My regret will have been that I couldn't, like whoever the prophet was, behold the promised land from afar. We are entering into a conception of the world that will be a sunny era, an era of tolerance. Man must be put in a position to develop freely the talents that, God has given him. What is important above all is that we should prevent a greater lie from replacing the lie that is disappearing. The world of Judeo-Bolshevism must collapse." - p343-344.

But here's the Jochmann and Picker text, [the actual german] for the Same date:

"Ich bin auf Grund hà¶herer Gewalt da, wenn ich zu etwas nà¶tig bin. Abgesehen davon, dass sie mir zu grausam ist, die seligmachende Kirche! Ich habe noch nie Gefallen gefunden daran, andere zu schinden, wenn ich auch weiβ, dass es ohne Gewalt nicht mà¶glich ist,, sich in der Welt zu behaupten. Es wird nur dem das Leben gegeben,, der am stäirksten darum ficht. Das Gesetz des Lebens heilβt: Verteidige dich!

Die Zeit, inder wir leben, ist die Erscheinung des Zusammenbruchs dieser Sache. Es kann 100 oder 200 Jahre noch dauern. Es tut mir leid, dass ich wie Moses das gelobte Land nur aus der Ferne sehen kann. Wir, wachsen in eine sonnige, wirklich tolerante Weltanschauung hinein: Der Mensch soll in der Lage sein, die ihm von Gott gegebenen Fähigkeiten zu entwickeln. Wir mà¼ssen nur verhindern, dass eine neue, noch grà¶ÃŽÂ²ere Là¼ge entsteht: die Jà¼disch-Bolschewistische Welt. Sie muss ich zerbrechen."

Translation:

"I am here due to a higher power, if I am necessary for anything. Leave aside that she is too cruel for me, the beatifying Church! I have never found pleasure in, maltreating others, even if I know it isn't possible to stand your ground in the world without force. Life is only given to those who fight for it the hardest. It is the law of life: Defend yourself! The time in which we live indicates the collapse of this, idea. It can still take 100 or 200 years. I am sorry that, like Moses, I can only see the Promised Land from a distance. We are growing into a sunny, really tolerant worldview: Man shall be, able to develop his God-given talents. We must only prevent a new, even greater lie from arising: that of the Jewish-Bolshevist world. That's what I [must] destroy. "


There are many significant discrepancies here. Compare the two versions above and we see some sentences radically changed in meaning.,Yet there is no doubt that both are derived from a common source. Given the greater credibility of Picker and Jochmann, the sham is almost certainly in Trevor-Roper's edition. In particular, the anti-Christian sentiment exhibited throughout the Trevor-Roper version is largely lacking in the German. There is no "disease of Christianity"that Hitler wishes dead, but the expediency of his own Nazi-enforced Social Darwinism. So the trevor/roper translation of this quote is false. Hitler's only genuine anti-Christian remark here is against the cruelty of the, Catholic Church specifically, with his sarcastic play on "die alleinseligmachende Kirche", the idea of a "one true church" that alone grants salvation.

I'll come to more detail on Hitler's "Christian credentials", and indeed the relationship between Fascism and religion later.

 

[CosmicJoghurt]

@theatheistguy

I can hardly relate those quotes to a non-Christian Hitler.

 

[kenandkids]

Atheistguy, source?

Hitler's Secret Conversations 1941-1944 aka Hitler's Table Talk 1941-1944, these were recorded by Hitler's secretary.

Hasn't that been largely debunked?

 

[CosmicJoghurt]

@kenandkids

Source? I'm most intrigued

 

[theyounghistorian77]

Hitler's Secret Conversations 1941-1944 aka Hitler's Table Talk 1941-1944, these were recorded by Hitler's secretary.

Hasn't that been largely debunked?

@kenandkids

Source? I'm most intrigued

*Ahem*

It [ meaning the "Trevor-roper edition"] is full of Mistranslations, see the "German Studies Review, Vol. 26, No. 3 (Oct., 2003), pp. 561-576." for more details

That's the source for the "Debunking" [as you put it] of the Trevor-roper edition of the table talks, and it comes from the peer-reviewed journals. If anyone want's the article, drop me a PM and i'll happily give it to you

 

[kenandkids]

It [ meaning the "Trevor-roper edition"] is full of Mistranslations, see the "German Studies Review, Vol. 26, No. 3 (Oct., 2003), pp. 561-576." for more details

That's the source for the "Debunking" [as you put it] of the Trevor-roper edition of the table talks, and it comes from the peer-reviewed journals. If anyone want's the article, drop me a PM and i'll happily give it to you

Sorry, I had asked that before I read your response. I was going to edit but realised I was late for my 5 year old's soccer game and trophy award.