AronRa
Administrator
On 11/11/12, I received the following message:
Time has become something of an issue for me, so I didn't respond until more than two weeks later.
11/26/12.
11/27/12
11/30/2012
12/02/2012
At this time, I would like to remind everyone that I did tell this guy that I don't have a lot of time, and that's why it takes me a couple weeks to respond. However just ten days later, I got this:
12/12/2012
Gilbertus, we haven't even started and I already have to repeat explanations that you didn't understand the first time. I could say that is typical, but it still doesn't bode well. You asked for the difference between abiogenesis and spontaneous generation after I already gave it. I show you the evidence, and you call it a spurious claim and demand evidence for it. This is the stuff you don't understand.
My definitions were subjected to review by anyone who could show where or how some correction was required. You're welcome to try your hand, but if you can't do that, (and we both already know you can't) then since I have already shown that those are the accurate definitions in the relevant context, then that's what we will use. You're unable to do that, and that's why you're complaining. Your arguments depend on misrepresented and misdefined terms, and it seems you're already aware of that.
For example, you mentioned evolutionary mechanisms on a macro and micro, and you associated micro-level evolution with the DNA level. Wow. Look up the definitions I gave you for microevolution and macroevolution, and you will see that I'm using the verifiably correct definitions and you're the wholly wrong nonsense ones.
I also showed you how to know when and how common dictionaries are inconsistent to the point of being unreliable -when we arguing terms of scientific speciality. Remember my example of the definition of 'animal' for example? I use the definitions I do; because I have already objectively verified that they are more accurate and more consistent than what you could find in any common dictionary.
For example, as I told Ray Comfort, at (18:05 - 19:01) in our debate, the dictionary presents two different contexts for the word, 'faith', and it is a typical tactic of the creationist that they mix the two. As if to prove my point, Ray immediately did just that. So did you.
It's not uncommon to have two different contexts -with completely different meanings- for one word. Look up the word, 'reason' for example. Is it the ability to extrapolate logically? Or is it a cause or catalyst? It is both, but not at the same time, not in the same context.
So what I have done is strip away irrelevant contexts from this topic. I haven't boxed anything in. Instead I've sourced more than just one dictionary, and more than just dictionaries; I've sourced every definitive authority on that term. I have already explained this in several of my videos, including (3:48 - 6:46) of the 5th foundational falsehood of creationism, and (6:00 - 8:13) of Philosophizing symbology. I explain this much more extensively in my video, Reasonable Faith?!. In another video, Faith is not a virtue, I also explain why faith is something one ought not to believe, yet we are taught that we should believe it anyway. Everything YOU believe may require faith, but if faith were required for anything I believed, I wouldn't believe it anymore. All of my beliefs are based on reason instead. That is how our philosophies differ.
There is no comparison between our two perspectives. We are not equally opposite. I can point out problems in both evolution and creationism, where I doubt you could show any actual issue in either one. I don't the bias that you do. Science seeks to minimize or eliminate bias. They do this by requiring an evidentiary basis behind all postulations, by demanding that all hypotheses be testable and potentially falsifiable, and they do this by subjecting all examinations or experiments to critical analysis in peer review. This is how science is the antithesis of faith.
I do not intend to pursue this conversation until February -for the reasons I have already explained. When we do resume, it will paced so that I can make time for it somehow, and so that you will get the most out of it.
You would doubtless claim that gravity is a fact, except that no one knows how it works. With evolution, we actually do know how it works, and I will be delighted to show you those mechanisms which you said don't exist. I have every intention of allowing your perspective and mine to "have at it", but on a level playing field which you are totally unprepared for. Only then will you realize how empty your position really is, or how measurably accurate mine is. All you've done so far is repeat some of the foundational falsehoods of creationism that I have already refuted innumerable times. For all your posturing that you're supposedly a science student, it's obvious that you don't know anything you're talking about, and you have no idea what an education you've got coming. I have to make time for you.
Just remember, I'm already aware that apart from misdefined terms and straw-man characterizations, your position also depends on deliberate ignorance, the avoidance of direct questions, and being deliberately obtuse. But this format will be structured such that you won't get away with any of that either. Looking forward to it.
I accept your challenge
Hello I heard you made a challenge that you can get anyone to become an evolutionist. I accept your challenge, please try and convert me to evolutionist dogma
Cheers
Gilbertus
Time has become something of an issue for me, so I didn't respond until more than two weeks later.
11/26/12.
I would -except that there is no 'evolutionist dogma'.
Before you accept the challenge, you should probably know what the challenge is.
Here is an easy-to-source occasion wherein my challenge was initially accepted. The subject ducked out early on, as they usually do, but at least he heard the challenge properly conveyed. So should you.
http://www.christianforums.com/t4441715/
If you still accept, then we'll need to agree on a set of definitions before we begin. I hate it when the goal posts move or when my opponents are working from straw-man fallacies which no scientist would endorse. So let's make sure we're both using the same terms to mean the same things, and that our definition is accurate.
http://freethoughtblogs.com/aronra/2012/09/15/offerings-to-the-atheist-dictionary/
Even then, I must warn you in advance, I am under a contractual obligation to have my book done ASAP. The publisher has already paid for it. I'm trying to have it done by February, but that will mean devoting all the time I can spare.
When the speaking season ended a couple weeks ago, I had roughly 2800 unread comments and personal messages dating back a month-and-a-half. Now I'm down to 875, only a couple weeks behind. Once I clear the rest of those, I'm only going to be working exclusively on my book. If you're very anxious, I will try to spare some time for you, but it may be only one post per week.
11/27/12
Thanks for finally getting back to me.
I accept that this will take place on
http://www.christianforums.com/t4441715/
However I do not accept the use of the definitions YOU have created. I would much prefer to use dictionary definitions found here.
http://dictionary.reference.com/
This is the site I go to for all my references and definitions of words in debates, as it is unbiased and an actual dictionary. I read you (attempt) at a dictionary or reference list and have seen a few instances where the rdefinition of things, such as "belief" and "atheism" have been doctored in order to allow the atheist his own "goal post shifting", (I see this often in debates, but its a new tactic to have ones own definitions set before a debate begins, kudos to you for showing me something new).
If you refuse to use the standard dictionary references above the ones of your own making, then I will consider that you are not serious in your challenge, as you do not wish to have a fair playing field as you do not want a neutral source and you'd prefer to have everything as you define them.
However if you do not wish to go ahead under these neutral terms, but wish to debate me on another topic feel free to find me on http://www.evolutionfairytale.com.
11/30/2012
I hadn't actually intended to use ChristianForums because they have a tendency to delete or block my posts whenever they find their beliefs offended. I prefer to use the League of Reason forums because I know whatever we post will remain up uncensored, and I know there will be other scientists there moderating.
http://www.leagueofreason.org.uk/
As for definitions, we could never settle for just one dictionary. The reason some of my definitions disturb you is that they are compiled from a comparative consensus, meaning I can show they are accurate even if you don't like it. Notice also that the definitions I showed you were submitted for review and revision by whomever saw them, and what you see now is what remains after required corrections were made. If you have a problem with any of the definitions I put forward, show me how it is wrong using multiple comparisons from appropriate sources if you can. Failing that, admit that it isn't wrong after all, and we'll move on.
Another reason your dictionary won't be good enough is that mere common-language dictionaries never get scientific definitions right. You can't show me any layman's dictionary that has the proper biological definition for 'animal' for example. Same with 'abiogenesis'. Every dictionary I have ever seen confuses that with 'Spontaneous Generation', and none of those dictionaries will correct that error even with citations provided. So you're not talking about neutral terms; you're talking about inadequate sources and inaccurate usage. Creationism depends on straw-man fallacies. So your allegation that I could or would use my definitions to shift goal-posts is frankly an empty accusation. My side of this argument never does what your side always does. The use of rigid, consistent, verifiably accurate definitions will prevent that on both sides. They'll also illustrate how you've misunderstood these terms all along, and that you won't be allowed to do that anymore. Doubtless you won't be comfortable with that, so I expect some resistance. However remember the onus is on me to prove my point, and I will. Look at the site you suggested for example; it depends on misdefining both 'evolution' and 'fairy tale' and juxtaposing them. If you'll look into this, you will find that evolution really is a factual explanation of biodiversity, not the collection of fairy tales that Genesis actually is. If you'll go the distance with me, you will also inevitably discover that your creationist mentors have all lied to you about practically every important point in this discussion.
12/02/2012
I am sure they do so because you either engage in logical fallacies or make empty accusations, (I've chatted with MANY evolutionists and its my observation that these two things are a running trend)
Perhaps you'd be more interested in going to evolutionfairytale,com since their mods are fair and reasonable. I have read some posts on the league and it seems that the mods like to engage in name calling. I read your discussion with Bob Enyart and the mod told him off for something, yet said nothing when you did the same thing later. Such blatant bias is not a good place to promote critical thinking, so on that justification I would rather not talk there.
How could you possibly know why your "definitions" disturb me, let alone know whether they do or not... Lest you're a mind reader or have special powers... Seems like your attempt to pass off as a know-it-all failed. You cannot presume to know what people think.
Consensus of what? Isn't that is what a dictionary is by definition? Why try and re-write the dictionary unless you have an agenda?
Here, I will demonstrate just one of your meager attempts at definition is wrong, (by definition lol).
You claim
Faith: A firm, stoic, and sacred conviction which is both adopted and maintained independent of physical evidence or logical proof.
Here is the actual meaning
faith
[feyth] Show IPA
noun
1.
confidence or trust in a person or thing: faith in another's ability.
2.
belief that is not based on proof: He had faith that the hypothesis would be substantiated by fact.
3.
belief in God or in the doctrines or teachings of religion: the firm faith of the Pilgrims.
4.
belief in anything, as a code of ethics, standards of merit, etc.: to be of the same faith with someone concerning honesty.
5.
a system of religious belief: the Christian faith; the Jewish faith.
http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/faith?s=t
2. Complete confidence in a person or plan etc; "he cherished the faith of a good woman".[Wordnet]
4. Loyalty or allegiance to a cause or a person; "keep the faith"; "they broke faith with their investors".[Wordnet]
7. The assent of the mind to the statement or proposition of another, on the ground of the manifest truth of what he utters; firm and earnest belief, on probable evidence of any kind, especially in regard to important moral truth.[Websters]
10. That which is believed on any subject, whether in science, politics, or religion; especially (Theol.), a system of religious belief of any kind; as, the Jewish or Mohammedan faith; and especially, the system of truth taught by Christ; as, the Christian faith; also, the creed or belief of a Christian society or church.[Websters]
13. Credibility or truth.[Websters].
http://www.websters-online-dictionary.org/definitions/faith
See how your definition automatically boxes "faith" as something one ought not to believe... Yet you're totally skipping over the fact that people have faith in their partner, you have faith in your ability to be rational, etc. Faith doesn't just concern Religion, despite what you may believe. Point 10 of the second website quoted is a very good one depicting that EVERYTHING we believe in, (even evolution etc), relies on a measure of faith.
Boxing in the definition is intellectually dishonesty, even more so when you ask me to agree to these spurious definitions before hand. There is nothing wrong with a dictionary, and if your "defintions" are defined by dictionaries, (despite where I've shown this is not the case), then there is no need at all to enforce others to follow your definitions, since your definitions are (apparantly) based on those dictionaries anyway. Meaning its illogical of you to try and re-write the dictionary whilst claiming that your definitions are based on the dictionary, but you do so because the dictionary is not good enough... See the contradiction here?
Who reviewed your definitions? Like-minded atheists? How could they spot any contradictions if they are like-minded? Its the same as asking a Christian to pick out problems with the Bible, or an evolutionist to pick out problems with evolution. All people are biased towards their own point of view, ergo your "peer review" by people who are of the same opinion as you is barely worth the time.
It is wrong because YOU are the one who has compiled them, leave that work to the multitudes of experts who do that for a living, and who actually have the authority to do so, unlike you who is just a person trying to re-write the dictionary. Additionally how is a reputable dictionary inappropriate, how about you provide evidence for such, if a scientific dictionary is required then feel free to use one, as long as its an official dictionary not one of your making.
I am talking about using neutral sources since the people who made the dictionary do not care about the debate between design and chance, meaning they "do not have a dog in this fight".. You on the other hand is taking part in this meaning any attempt of you trying to redefine words will most likely be done so to try and further your goals here. Merely stating that a dictionary is not neutral does nothing, you need evidence for your claims.
Please demonstrate the difference of spontaneous generation and abiogenesis since they imply a very very similar conclusion. Life from non-life, (thus defying the Law of Biogenesis, trust evolutionists to try and defy natural law lol).
What goal posts have I shifted? Shifting blame is a very common "tactic" however it won't work. As far as I have seen YOU are the one attempting to create his own defintions of words rather than use the established neutral definitions in an established official source... WIth the logically invalid reason being because you feel the dictionaries are inaccurate yet you claim that your definitions are based on dictionaries. But if not then what? What measure of objectivity and fairness is there when you get to define the words being used?
Which terms have I misunderstood? Your words are not golden, just because you say something doesn't make it true, (unless you have this amazing power to make things true by saying it, and if so please say that I have $1,000,000 in the bank lol). In other words where is your evidence that I have misunderstood anything at all? We haven't even started and you're claiming I misunderstand stuff, what stuff?
(this seems to be a reoccuring thing where you make spurious claims but do not give any evidence for them... Yet I get told that evidence is the be-all for evolutionists?... oops)
Creationist mentors? Where are you getting this crap? I am a science student, I used to believe in evolution, however the more I CRITICALLY looked at the details, (the inner workings of the cell is most important for me), I saw this glaring hole. Whenever I asked my lecturers about these holes they'd skip over them and not deal with the problems, this was my escape from the illusion of evolution.
Evolution may seem great when you are comparing large animals to each other, but when you go to the molecular level evolution has no leg to stand on there, there are no mechanisms proposed there are no results to be gleaned there is nothing.
At this time, I would like to remind everyone that I did tell this guy that I don't have a lot of time, and that's why it takes me a couple weeks to respond. However just ten days later, I got this:
12/12/2012
And now to address this blustering, cocksure, would-be antagonist who imagines himself to such a priority.So whats going on Aron? Have you given up already?
I figured that my demonstration of your attempt at a "dictionary" would resolve the problem, as you had asked for an example of its inconsistency.
If you cannot see that a "dictionary" or set of definitions that has been "peer reviewed" by like-minded people (in this case atheists) will inherently contain an atheist bias, hence why I do not accept your definitions since whilst you claim they have been "checked" they have only been done so via one perspective, surely you realise that every person is biased hence to have proper review of something is to have all perspectives "have at it", THAT would be real critical review.
Additionally from my perspective evolution, (changes to different organisms), is more the fairytale since there has been no actual mechanisms claimed for its operation. Natural selection is claimed like a magic wand that solves all problems however there has been no attempt to define the mechanisms of this selection on a macro and on the micro (DNA) level. This is a glaring omission for something touted as "fact", since its akin to someone claiming X is a fact, but they just don't know how it works.... If the workings are not known then how can someone claim that evolution was the cause, since it cannot be verified via observations of its mechanisms in action.
Now you may claim that "evolution" is observed as changes within moth colour, beak shape, fur colour etc however such are benign changes which would not logically lead to a new species or form of organism.. Rather such changes would likely result in a new breed of the same species... Therefore it must be asked if these small changes are "evidence" of the larger (extrapolated) changes, how could one logically concieve the changes within the colour of a moth as to result in new body structures which would in turn lead to it becoming something other than a moth? In other words, its an evolutionist's attempt at changing the goal posts since small changes such as colour etc cannot be logically concieved to be a precursor to larger (more fundamental) changes.
Gilbertus, we haven't even started and I already have to repeat explanations that you didn't understand the first time. I could say that is typical, but it still doesn't bode well. You asked for the difference between abiogenesis and spontaneous generation after I already gave it. I show you the evidence, and you call it a spurious claim and demand evidence for it. This is the stuff you don't understand.
My definitions were subjected to review by anyone who could show where or how some correction was required. You're welcome to try your hand, but if you can't do that, (and we both already know you can't) then since I have already shown that those are the accurate definitions in the relevant context, then that's what we will use. You're unable to do that, and that's why you're complaining. Your arguments depend on misrepresented and misdefined terms, and it seems you're already aware of that.
For example, you mentioned evolutionary mechanisms on a macro and micro, and you associated micro-level evolution with the DNA level. Wow. Look up the definitions I gave you for microevolution and macroevolution, and you will see that I'm using the verifiably correct definitions and you're the wholly wrong nonsense ones.
I also showed you how to know when and how common dictionaries are inconsistent to the point of being unreliable -when we arguing terms of scientific speciality. Remember my example of the definition of 'animal' for example? I use the definitions I do; because I have already objectively verified that they are more accurate and more consistent than what you could find in any common dictionary.
For example, as I told Ray Comfort, at (18:05 - 19:01) in our debate, the dictionary presents two different contexts for the word, 'faith', and it is a typical tactic of the creationist that they mix the two. As if to prove my point, Ray immediately did just that. So did you.
It's not uncommon to have two different contexts -with completely different meanings- for one word. Look up the word, 'reason' for example. Is it the ability to extrapolate logically? Or is it a cause or catalyst? It is both, but not at the same time, not in the same context.
So what I have done is strip away irrelevant contexts from this topic. I haven't boxed anything in. Instead I've sourced more than just one dictionary, and more than just dictionaries; I've sourced every definitive authority on that term. I have already explained this in several of my videos, including (3:48 - 6:46) of the 5th foundational falsehood of creationism, and (6:00 - 8:13) of Philosophizing symbology. I explain this much more extensively in my video, Reasonable Faith?!. In another video, Faith is not a virtue, I also explain why faith is something one ought not to believe, yet we are taught that we should believe it anyway. Everything YOU believe may require faith, but if faith were required for anything I believed, I wouldn't believe it anymore. All of my beliefs are based on reason instead. That is how our philosophies differ.
There is no comparison between our two perspectives. We are not equally opposite. I can point out problems in both evolution and creationism, where I doubt you could show any actual issue in either one. I don't the bias that you do. Science seeks to minimize or eliminate bias. They do this by requiring an evidentiary basis behind all postulations, by demanding that all hypotheses be testable and potentially falsifiable, and they do this by subjecting all examinations or experiments to critical analysis in peer review. This is how science is the antithesis of faith.
I do not intend to pursue this conversation until February -for the reasons I have already explained. When we do resume, it will paced so that I can make time for it somehow, and so that you will get the most out of it.
You would doubtless claim that gravity is a fact, except that no one knows how it works. With evolution, we actually do know how it works, and I will be delighted to show you those mechanisms which you said don't exist. I have every intention of allowing your perspective and mine to "have at it", but on a level playing field which you are totally unprepared for. Only then will you realize how empty your position really is, or how measurably accurate mine is. All you've done so far is repeat some of the foundational falsehoods of creationism that I have already refuted innumerable times. For all your posturing that you're supposedly a science student, it's obvious that you don't know anything you're talking about, and you have no idea what an education you've got coming. I have to make time for you.
Just remember, I'm already aware that apart from misdefined terms and straw-man characterizations, your position also depends on deliberate ignorance, the avoidance of direct questions, and being deliberately obtuse. But this format will be structured such that you won't get away with any of that either. Looking forward to it.