Help appreciated in Debate

[Josan]

Recently I got in to a heated debate with my brother about Islam and Christianity. And as it was quite late we didn't really settle anything, now I would like to just get some sources and viewpoints from some of you to help my objectivity and factual correction. It's not that I really care so much about this discussion with my brother, but I will have a (mandatory) Religion & Ethics class next year were I expect I will face at least a few similar debates.

Now, the debate itself centred around the difference between Islam and Christianity. Now, my viewpoint is that the two are very similar and that both lead to discrimination, censorship etc. and in extreme cases even murder, torture, rape and similar, often on large scale. However, the discussion was taking a course where my brother was arguing that Islam was a terrible, terrible religion with suicide-bombers and wife-beaters and Christianity was just old women going to church.

Therefore I ended up pretty much trying to defend Islam throughout the whole exchange, which I admittedly regret now. I tried for example to make the point that only a small number of Muslims actually did these horrible things and that he was generalizing, where as he claimed "Well... at least ,¾ are that extreme!". I also tried to argue that this difference in cases of extreme Christians and Muslims are due to different factors like social setting and government, but he refused to listen and denied it. He claimed that this was because the Quran led them to this evil behaviour, which very well might be true, but in my view the Bible is just as bad as the Quran, even tough I have read neither (I am working on it).

Now; I want to hear YOUR views on this or similar matters! Are the religions of Christianity and Islam very different on certain (important) points? In what way and how? Is the Quran extremely different from the Bible? I would also love (as I always do) any good statistics or quotes you might remember in the back of your mind.

Hope to see some discussion going on,

- Josan

 

[Durakken]

Christians aren't as extreme hrmmm?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RXVB_gCqplU&feature=channel_page
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uVoKUrdizwo&feature=channel_page

 

[theatheistguy]

Definitely Islam is a terrible religion, or at least it's book, but this is the same as bible, which includes mass murder of men, women and children, bashing babies of rocks, mass rape of virgins, laws dictating that rape victims must marry their rapist, that women and children should be beaten, that disobedient children should be stoned. A book that says you should offer up your two daughters to be gang raped when a group of men ask to see the two men you had just met, or that when 42 of 'the littlest children' call a bald man bald, the suitable punishment is for them to be mauled to death by 2 she bears.

As for what Christians have actually done, try Salem witch trials, the inquisitions, holy crusades, the recent shooting of George Tiller and others like it, West Borough Baptist Church, and of course, the wars in Iraq and Afghanistan, apparently instructed by god to George W. Bush, or the the Catholic Church spreading lies in Africa that not only are condoms evil, but spread AIDs, and in some cases, the way to get rid of AIDs, is to rape a virgin, the younger the better.

How's that for you?

 

[Homunclus]

I'm not sure if this is relevant but Christianity probably kills far more than Islam. How many people are dying because of the anti-contraceptive and anti-family planing policies of the Vatican?

Just because Islam kills on a more visible and flashy way that doesn't make them any worse

 

[Icefire9atla]

The only reason Christianity isn't as violent (in general) as Islam is because more Christians live in first world, modern nations. They have access to education and a stable social situation which many muslims do not.

I'd say the Koran is at least as bad as the Bible though.

 

[Durakken]

Remember:

Hinduism -> Jeudaism -> Christian -> Muslim/Mormon

Remember also that Christian refers to a lot of other religions that adapted it to theirs, eastern and western, and Christianity is made up of most Religions that came before it... so, really anything that you apply to Christianity will apply to just about every other religion.

 

[salko7]

for me the difference is in the "key" prophets or what people use as an idol, for jesus he (or at least as i know) was only a man of peace not trying to get into a war or fight and walking around curing people.
while muhammad on the other hand had two sides and people seem to pick one and leave the other, i side that showed he was a peaceful loving human who cares about people and is armed with extreme knowledge, the other side of him on the other hands loves to get into wars , and don't let people fool you into "he was trying to spread the truth" crap i think a man who can speak would god would have a better plan to spread it , look at what he did :

1-first they go to the ruler of the empire and ask them to under islam rule and non muslims must pay a fine (tax)
2-if refused then they must still pay the fine
3-if refused then its all out war

more like organized crime if you ask me ?
and sadly people on both sides think what he did was right and "peaceful" , just sad.

 

[WolfAU]

Some similarities between Islam and Christianity:
- Monotheistic (only one God exists), similar core belief's, core myths (ie Garden of Eden).
- Have similar historic origins.
- Both were and are manipulated for political reasons (leaders manipulating their followers).
- Both encourage a dogmatic attitude, valuing strength of belief (how certain you are, ie would you do something otherwise against your nature if told it was God's will)
- Heavy focus on conversion, encouraging discrimination to those of other belief systems, demanding the faithful convert others, by violence if necessary, and if that fails, conquest and death.
- Both offer eternal reward for good, and eternal punishment for bad.

However you mention censorship, and while it encourages dogmatic views and an approach which is intellectually dishonest, and one easily offended by exposure to 'sin' in media, I don't know if I'd go so far as to say it is a huge force for censorship by comparison to secular forces.

Re murder, rape, torture... religion doesn't have a monopoly on any of these, but I am reminded of a quote cited by Dawkin's in Root of all Evil?
"Religion is an insult to human dignity. Without it we'd have good people doing good things and evil people doing evil things, but for good people to do evil things, it takes Religion." -Steven Weinburg

Religion is bad not because it causes these evils, but because it causes otherwise moral and good people to commit them.

Islam is bad these days because...
1. There are several countries which are theocracies (where the church rules and religious dictate is law), which are to me evil by nature.
2. Alot of countries which large amounts of Islamic support are poor countries, which increases politcal motivation and things like 'desperate gun's for hire', not to mention how likely the populous is to be compromising on their morals.

 

[Epicion]

Difference between Christianity and Islam?

Christians by majority don't know their own religion. Let alone have read their own Bible. Muslims, all of them fundamentally must learn and memorise Surah's from their book, Quran just to pray. The indoctrination begins in a much stronger sense than Christianity requires.

in terms of dismissal of Reality, Christianity has more dangers as it can cause people to not believe in black holes, and believe the earth is 10000 years old. Islam is a bit benign but still harmful as it causes people to disbelieve in Evolution, same as Christianity. Disbelieve in the big bang, same as Christianity but on top of this, it causes people to accept death as an acceptable punishment for a crime.

Islam is barbaric in its true form. Not because of its policies of killing outsiders or other countries people if they refuse to accept islam or refuse to pay them money. But because its punishments rival that of the inquisition. Atleast Christianity saw its own dark side and learned from it. Islam, did not.

-L

 

[Josan]

Definitely Islam is a terrible religion, or at least it's book, but this is the same as bible, which includes mass murder of men, women and children, bashing babies of rocks, mass rape of virgins, laws dictating that rape victims must marry their rapist, that women and children should be beaten, that disobedient children should be stoned. A book that says you should offer up your two daughters to be gang raped when a group of men ask to see the two men you had just met, or that when 42 of 'the littlest children' call a bald man bald, the suitable punishment is for them to be mauled to death by 2 she bears.

All perfect examples of how morally-bankrupt and fucked up the bible truly is. But, however, there is a clear distinction to be made here, as most of the examples you brought up are single incidents that Jehova (or Lot, etc) themselves, it would be different if the Qu'ran not only said the same things, but actually told muslims to do those exact things.

I am however, perfectly aware of the bible instructing quite grizzling things. Animal/human sacrifice, stoning those who blaspheme the name of the lord, it is a sin NOT to stone those who do any work (including collecting sticks for a fire) on the sabbath, it's okey to beat slaves, beat your children to drive out evil from them, etc.

As for what Christians have actually done, try Salem witch trials, the inquisitions, holy crusades, the recent shooting of George Tiller and others like it, West Borough Baptist Church, and of course, the wars in Iraq and Afghanistan, apparently instructed by god to George W. Bush, or the the Catholic Church spreading lies in Africa that not only are condoms evil, but spread AIDs, and in some cases, the way to get rid of AIDs, is to rape a virgin, the younger the better.

Good examples.

The only reason Christianity isn't as violent (in general) as Islam is because more Christians live in first world, modern nations. They have access to education and a stable social situation which many muslims do not.

I would concur, and the fact is that just like christians you have a lot of different muslims, most of them are not extremist.

I'd say the Koran is at least as bad as the Bible though.

But would you say that it is worse?

However you mention censorship, and while it encourages dogmatic views and an approach which is intellectually dishonest, and one easily offended by exposure to 'sin' in media, I don't know if I'd go so far as to say it is a huge force for censorship by comparison to secular forces.

Well, I guess the censorship argument doesn't apply as much now a days, but in earlier times I think religion (or at least christianity) has been a HUGE force for censorship in the form of blasphemy charges, the inqusition and the witch hunts and basicly having an extremely strict hand on anyone challening the curch.

Religion is bad not because it causes these evils, but because it causes otherwise moral and good people to commit them.

I love that quote and this is a great, great point. However, it only helps refine the question - Would you say that either Christianty or Islam is better at getting good people to do evil? Or are they pretty much similar and most, and the differences we see today are due to different factors?

Now I guess you already sort of answered that with:

Islam is bad these days because...
1. There are several countries which are theocracies (where the church rules and religious dictate is law), which are to me evil by nature.
2. Alot of countries which large amounts of Islamic support are poor countries, which increases politcal motivation and things like 'desperate gun's for hire', not to mention how likely the populous is to be compromising on their morals.

Christians by majority don't know their own religion. Let alone have read their own Bible. Muslims, all of them fundamentally must learn and memorise Surah's from their book, Quran just to pray. The indoctrination begins in a much stronger sense than Christianity requires.

Couldn't agree more. And this is why the question interested me so, because many, many people from Christian nations and cultures make outrages statements about Islam without realizing the exact same thing is true about the bible. The height of hippocracy. A girl at my school actually said, in all seriousness and despair, "Can you belive that the Qu'ran actually accepts the death penalty? We should ban it!"... *facepalm*

Islam is barbaric in its true form. Not because of its policies of killing outsiders or other countries people if they refuse to accept islam or refuse to pay them money. But because its punishments rival that of the inquisition. Atleast Christianity saw its own dark side and learned from it. Islam, did not.

A truly valid point, but the real interesting question here is why has christianity "seen it's own dark side". Is it because of christian values that come from the bible, or outside sources and culture? I would be inclined to say the second, as I feel many of the things we consider civil and just today are actually quite different from the values you find in the bible. Also, it might be worth remembering that Islam is a much younger religion than christianty.

Thanks for all the comments guys!

 

[Epicion]

Is it because of christian values that come from the bible, or outside sources and culture?

Education

Also, it might be worth remembering that Islam is a much younger religion than christianty.

I don't see mormons doing things that muslims believe in and they have a younger religion although a branch of Christianity I guess....

Education, information are the main reasons why Christianity saw its own faults. Although, It's worth noting they may have not seen their own faults but they themselves nowdays don't even know them. The Christians don't know their bible. The old testament giving the death sentence for adultery, the killing of your wife if she saves your life from a man about to kill you by touching his private parts (deuteronomy 25:11)

It's people like us who bother pointing out Christainity's hypocrisy. Even theologically to myself, Christianity does not make sense. To force a human into something as enigmatic and often described as (one with no form) as God is in itself a theological hypocrisy.

in conclusion,

To myself, Islam and Christianity are two evils of the same tree. Almost like two branches. It doesn't matter if someone says Islam causes terrorism. You bring up Christianity's inquisition to match it from the past. If anything Islam is going through the same phases as Christianity did. E.g the dark ages in saudi arabia and other islamic states, the lack of freedom of speech as shown by gallileo's death upon herecy etc.

Islam will (hopefully) find its way to what we know Christianity as.

-L

 

[WolfAU]

Would you say that either Christianty or Islam is better at getting good people to do evil? Or are they pretty much similar and most, and the differences we see today are due to different factors?

In the 12th Century... Christianity was worse. Today, Islam is worse. The reason being that in the 12th Century Christendom was a group of tyrannical countries, warmongers etc. And alot of things like slavery were condoned as 'God ordaned', torture, oppression of women were often as well. The church was also a force for evil and it was considered a sin to question them.

Today however the problem with Islam is, as I mentioned before, alot of poor countries full of desperate people eager to kill Isreali's and westerners, and Islamic religious leaders are more than happy to interpret the Koran in a way to facilitate this, turning it at present into a very militant sect. In my experience the scriptures of a religion aren't nearly as influencial as people think, with the cultural and communal focus being much more important (ie what is the focus on preaching, what is told, what is left out, how they spin it, and additional claims on top of scriptural claims).