Has Anyone Ever Changed a Creatioinst's Mind?

[theatheistguy]

The only thing I had a hard time accepting was that Man also evolved.

Why do people find this so hard to accept

Because people like to think the whole universe revolves around them, that they're different and special from everyone else, this would then extend to the human race being special and different.

 

[IrBubble]

I can't understand why people can't just accept that their views on the world states them in the center of their perception of the universe instead of pretending like they're in the actual center of the universe.

 

[borrofburi]

I have never experienced indoctrination myself, do you think it's had a huge impact on your life? Would you be opposed to having an age limit on religion, as in until you are an adult (18 or 21) you are, by law, not allowed to practice religion or attend church or any such thing, and it would also be illegal for an adult to teach a child about such things?

It's a tricky issue. The problem I immediately see is that it is unfair to religious parents, and will effectively make all religious people criminals. Telling the religious they can't indoctrinate their children is akin to saying to them "if your child dies before the age of 18 it's going to hell", they simply won't follow the law and it'll put a lot of religion underground, I'd rather it be obvious that it's there.

I'm also generally against censorship in any form, and this really does become censorship.

On the flip side, indoctrination can be quite powerful. And watching those parts of Jesus camp I can think nothing other than "that's child abuse", and I'd rather that not happen. However, being very against censorship, I think perhaps a better route to take is to make some form of critical thinking and logic mandatory. I find myself *often* telling people that they need to take a course in critical thinking and logic, so rather than saying "no indoctrination", it'd probably be better to take a different route and give children the antidote.

And actually, for similar reasons, I am very much *for* churches teaching special creation, while it can be frustrating to deal with them. I would have never realized religious authorities are *very* fallible had I not gone "hey, I've been told evolution is a lie and bad science by religious authorities, they were all *extremely* wrong, which means they either knew they were wrong and flat out lied, or they didn't even bother to find out if they were wrong (I'm not sure which is worse)"

If you can understand an atheist viewpoint (and the evidence that goes with it, and the lack thereof for a God) I think it's hard not to be one, you would be making an unreasonable, illogical and irrational decision if you chose to oppose it and debate it.

Maybe. I do find that most people don't understand why they believe, that most people can't see that the same reason they don't believe in zeus or thor are the same reasons I don't believe in their god. However, I can imagine a rational person understanding this and still choosing belief (can one just "choose" to believe?) because of a pascal's wager and a "this seems like the best choice for my bet" sort of mentality.

 

[ladiesman391]

Telling the religious they can't indoctrinate their children is akin to saying to them "if your child dies before the age of 18 it's going to hell"

If you read bible doctrines you will find that children do not go to hell if they do not know or are made aware of God's existence so that wouldn't be a problem.

Maybe. I do find that most people don't understand why they believe, that most people can't see that the same reason they don't believe in zeus or thor are the same reasons I don't believe in their god. However, I can imagine a rational person understanding this and still choosing belief (can one just "choose" to believe?) because of a pascal's wager and a "this seems like the best choice for my bet" sort of mentality.

I only said choosing to "OPPOSE IT and DEBATE IT", I didn't say choosing to believe in it (however if someone's aware of the lack of evidence of God/s and they still believe in God/s that's illogical and irrational), however I do think people are entitled to believe in anything they want.

 

[borrofburi]

If you read bible doctrines you will find that children do not go to hell if they do not know or are made aware of God's existence so that wouldn't be a problem.

I don't really know any christian who seriously believes this, except mormons.

 

[ladiesman391]

There are many that believe this, there are many that believe those who are not made aware of God's existence even as adults will be given the chance to repent upon death in front of God or some such bullshit.

 

[borrofburi]

I think even those would say that they were given an imperative from god to share their religion and you would be damning them to hell. Anyway, it wouldn't work, you and I both know that, nor do I think that even if it did work would it be a good approach, which is primarily the meat of my position.

 

[ladiesman391]

think even those would say that they were given an imperative from god to share their religion and you would be damning them to hell. Anyway, it wouldn't work, you and I both know that, nor do I think that even if it did work would it be a good approach, which is primarily the meat of my position.

I admit it would be hard to get it started, but there are laws that prevent children from watching movies, playing games, reading books and magazines that contain explicit material, the Bible and other religious texts depict violence and rape etc so why should it be any different, I think it will just be a matter of time and hard work.

 

[Natusaurus]

Once, I had a long discussion with a young man who was a volunteer at a creationist exhibition. I could debunk the exhibits, and he appeared confused about what evolution actually was. So he asked me for a definition. I said someting about genetic variation and natural selection producing change that spreads through populations and eventually causes speciation, after which he said, astonishingly: "Oh, but I can agree with that!" Apparently, his problem with evolution was that he had trouble imagining those mechanisms being the cause of common descent, and with drawing conclusions about large periods of time. So I went back to some points about genetics, geologic dating and tieing them together to argue that there has been enough time and enough variation produced to explain the species we see today. I think he could even grasp most of it, and he concluded that he didn't know enough about the subject.

The most important thing in these cases, I think, is to show that evolution does not have to be a danger to any religion or worldview. In the end, if someone is fearful of accepting something, he won't, even if that person sees how reasonable it is.

Someone who truly changed his mind was Dutch former ID-theorist Cees Dekker, who now fully supports the theory of evolution. But there are probably others. Siegfried Scherer has maybe changed his mind somewhat, as well as Willem Ouweneel, but I would need to check more extensively. Regardless, I was not the one to change their minds. In the case of Dekker, a serious backlash from Dutch intellectuals after he published a book with essays by different authors on ID seems to have done the trick.

 

[polop1234]

i remember once confusing my biology teacher over his circular reasoning "what if the bible isnt true?" "but god wrote it, and he never lies" "how do you know?" "it says so in the bi... wait...." xD but hees cool. he acctually taught evoloution as it should be taught, as i know some creationists who wouldnt. :shock: