Guns, Germs, and Steel. The fate of Human societies.

[Ad Initium]

I am reading this book called "Guns, Germs, and Steel. The Fates of Human Societies" by Jared Diamond which basically tries to give a unique view on how the world developed the way it did. I am the very early beginning of the book, so I can not yet go deep into it all.

But from reading the first pages some question poppep up in my mind. Now the question I will be asking might sound silly as it will have no direct application to the world today. Well, not really, only if... well,...

History tells us that when societies clash, the more advanged society is more likely to come up victorious, purposly destroying or by accident consuming the lesser one. This book tries to answer the why, not the how. But being such a sci-fi fan,... they ask this question time and time again in books and movies. Humanity always seems doomed somehow.

What will happen if some alien ship would land on earth and initiate first contact? No, no funny laser beams cutting us down, bombing our cities. What would truly happen? I once heard a statement that for a civilisation to be able to travel through space, it would need to be peacefull society, because it would require all the resources of that society to even make it out of their own solar system. Not sure if that is true, but lets assume it is.

- An alien spaceships lands somewhere on earth and initiates first contact
- The aliens are peacefull and want to trade and establish a permanent political dialogue.
- They wish to exchange knowledge and educate us. Yes, even share technologies, so we too can travel in space the way they do.

What would be the danger in this? The sudden burst of technology?

In Star Trek they have a simple but effective mechanism to prevent contamination of the lesser developed society called "The Prime Directive," which basically states that they will not make contact with a lesser evolved society untill it developes Warp capability for themselves. As having Warp ability would mean they will encounter other species soon anyway. After such a society discovers Warp (faster then light travel) Starfleet will do it's best to intergrate this new society into the vast realm of warp-capable species. A noble cause.

Would we be ready, if a species way more advanged then us makes contact with us? How could we prevent our society going bust? I'd say that the road with good intentions is covered with failures, so we would need to have some failsafes. One failsafe could be the UN or any gov would deny the existance of these aliens. But if they fly round the world, cellphone, twitter, skype, youtube and independant newscoverage of such an event, will prevent any gov to hold the lit on it.

What would we say to them?

- Sorry, nice of you to make contact, but you will be contaminating our culture and even though you do not mean it, destroy us ... So GO AWAY! ... ??

But if we do not do that ... How would we go about it?

 

[Inferno]

I've read the book a few months ago, so I'll try to answer your question as best as I can.

At some point in the book (not sure about the chapter), he explains what actually happened when societies clashed and what happened to the exchange of technology.
For example, the Indians adapted incredibly well (and fast) to guns. Other cultures (for example aboriginal Australians) did basically nothing to change.

I doubt that we would be in any way challenged by new technology. Our own technology advances at such a speed, that I myself am sometimes unable to differentiate between genuine technology and movie gadgets.

I have yet to hear of a truly peaceful society that dooms a different society simply by giving them new technology.

So in one sentence: New technology wouldn't destroy us, quite the contrary; It might improve our lives quite substantially.

 

[Ad Initium]

But ... It wouldnt just be technology that we will come across.

You read the book already, I am just at the beginning, so perhaps it will be answered for me later on ... but what about true culture? World views and such? I recall from various movies I have seen and stories that I have read, that when Europeans came to places that were less developed and a totally different culture, they sometimes unwillingly pose their own views through on how the world should work and look like.

Something silly as example perhaps, ... force the native people to wear cloths.

But think of religion too ... I think it would be very clear that when a spaceship lands in your backyard, while you are studying the Bible at the same time .... You'd go like "Holy...!".

Will it force religion out of the way completely? Will religious people just deny it and start yelling "demons!". Some religions, like scientology, may go even stronger perhaps.

Or would the landing of such an alien vessel cause such riot world wide, we'd be in conflict for a long time. Some would probably try to get the full benifits from such an event, enrich themselves, while others would acknowledge it, but try to stay far from it.

It would not all be happy, I think.

 

[borrofburi]

- An alien spaceships lands somewhere on earth and initiates first contact
- The aliens are peacefull and want to trade and establish a permanent political dialogue.
- They wish to exchange knowledge and educate us. Yes, even share technologies, so we too can travel in space the way they do.

Either our microorganisms would kill them, or their microorganisms would kill us.

 

[Inferno]

Aside from what borrofburi already said (which is not completely true and also slightly irrelevant for the time being) I doubt that our views would change dramatically on such issues as religion and culture. It would be a bit like finding a new continent. (That's why I brought up the Native Americans and Australians.)

Anything that the aliens could change in our culture, we could too. I don't know why, but I'm having difficulties putting this in words, so ask if anything seems strange.

I absolutely agree that something will change, but unless they invade us, there's no reason to believe that our own culture would drown. I think that it is safe to assume that the Aliens genetics and morphology would severely restrict cultural dominion.
We'd have to adapt, sure, but to what extent? The more different the Aliens are, the less likely we're going to be to have our cultures die out.

 

[he_who_is_nobody]

"Guns, Germs, and Steel" is a great book. It is a good primer.

I would find it hard to believe that a peaceful, advanced alien society would make first contact by landing a flying saucer on the white house lawn. If they were truly peaceful and truly wanted to make contact with us, they would send out some sort of signal first.

Another problem would be basic communication. At first, the most we could share would be math, because that seems to be a universal language, but anything past math may take many years to develop a fluid communication. There could be other physical barriers as well, such as they hear at a higher frequency than we do.

However, your main question seems to be will we lose our culture if an advanced alien race came to earth, well that depends on how you look at our culture. Ever since the middle of the 20th century, our technology has increased on an exponential scale. I would say that we (those living in a first world country) do not have the same culture as our fellow compatriots of 60 years ago. Our culture has changed so much so fast. We do have some of the same traditions but our culture has changed away from what it was.

The thing I am getting at is that culture is not static. Cultures across the world change every day, due to influence from within or without. An advanced alien race coming to earth and sharing their culture and technology with us would be another example of our culture changing, but this would be a change coming from outside of it.

We would still be human, we would still have all the flaws that make us human and shape our cultures. So would be lose our humanity? I do not think so. Will we lose our culture as we see it today? Yes, but we were going to lose that anyways because our technology is moving so fast.

 

[FatStupidAmerican]

Garrr! Jared Diamond.

The premise of Diamond;s work is GG&S is all environmental determinism.

 

[FatStupidAmerican]

I have yet to hear of a truly peaceful society that dooms a different society simply by giving them new technology.

So in one sentence: New technology wouldn't destroy us, quite the contrary; It might improve our lives quite substantially.

Is anyone else thinking about "The Gods must be Crazy?"

 

[Inferno]

Is anyone else thinking about "The Gods must be Crazy?"

I did at first, but there's a difference between "technology chucked at you" and "technology introduced to you in a peaceful and helpful way".

 

[FatStupidAmerican]

Inferno

There actually is a case where missionaries introduced steel axes to a tribe and it ended disastrously, excuse my vagueness. I'll do some digging this weekend to see if I still have the article, its been a few years but it was something discussed in one of my anthropology classes.

 

[Inferno]

Inferno

There actually is a case where missionaries introduced steel axes to a tribe and it ended disastrously, excuse my vagueness. I'll do some digging this weekend to see if I still have the article, its been a few years but it was something discussed in one of my anthropology classes.

But was the technology the reason for them killing each other? Or was it just a tool that made it easier and they would have done it anyway?

 

[AdmiralPeacock]

About a year ago I read Pandora's Planet series by Christopher Anvil - which takes an interesting take on the whole alien invasion thing. A race of generally technologically superior aliens invade Earth, humans almost drive them back but are ultimately conquered. We then start to integrate into their empire... and infect it with our ideals, ranging from hard capitalism to communism, from hard-line rationality to fanatical religiosity. Basically Earth is Pandora's box, and we're the all the evils of the world (or in this case the galaxy). I only got about half way through the series... I really should finish it.


Anvil also postulates that humans may be on average more intelligent than a technologically superior species, but are to fractured into groups to advance significantly. As is the case with the invading Centrans in the series, they are relatively stupid on average - but hold value their genius members in almost a divine regard; where as, by comparison, humans are not as impressed with geniuses and affectedly wastes them.

 

[Ad Initium]

"Guns, Germs, and Steel" is a great book. It is a good primer.

I would find it hard to believe that a peaceful, advanced alien society would make first contact by landing a flying saucer on the white house lawn. If they were truly peaceful and truly wanted to make contact with us, they would send out some sort of signal first.

Another problem would be basic communication. At first, the most we could share would be math, because that seems to be a universal language, but anything past math may take many years to develop a fluid communication. There could be other physical barriers as well, such as they hear at a higher frequency than we do.

However, your main question seems to be will we lose our culture if an advanced alien race came to earth, well that depends on how you look at our culture. Ever since the middle of the 20th century, our technology has increased on an exponential scale. I would say that we (those living in a first world country) do not have the same culture as our fellow compatriots of 60 years ago. Our culture has changed so much so fast. We do have some of the same traditions but our culture has changed away from what it was.

The thing I am getting at is that culture is not static. Cultures across the world change every day, due to influence from within or without. An advanced alien race coming to earth and sharing their culture and technology with us would be another example of our culture changing, but this would be a change coming from outside of it.

We would still be human, we would still have all the flaws that make us human and shape our cultures. So would be lose our humanity? I do not think so. Will we lose our culture as we see it today? Yes, but we were going to lose that anyways because our technology is moving so fast.

Yes ... but no so loosing it. I understand we would still have culture and it wil eventually (re)evolve around the new concept of alien life. But having the great shock of an actual spaceship landing, eventhough they are peacefull ... will ripple through all of the earth's cultures.

There are still people today that believe we did not land on the moon but that it is a hoax. Mostly old people perhaps, ... but to say ... it will be such an impressive thing to happen ... the results may be catastrophic.

Though, I would argue, that at this point in time, most of the western world will have build up a defence for it, as our culture includes movies and books about it. For most it will not be a shock ... perhaps some will say "Finally!" ... I know I would. But there may be people or peoples that will have more difficulty with it.

Religion would be effected. Suppose the darn thing lands directly on Mekka during the Hadj, or near the Pope when he gives his Eastern speech in Rome on life telivision. Suppose the aliens have a religion of their own.

I know for sure I would yell "finally" ... but my first next question would be "what do they want from us?"

Suppose Germs are not an issue as they are advanged enough to coop with that or only walk around in protective suits, it would remain a cause for concern ofcoure.
I do not believe language per se has to be a problem, as they could have been monitorring our communications for a long time already and learned about us. They would know more about us then we would probably like.

Is it not in the mind of men, to be cautious? To wonder "what are the neighbours doing?" We would need to protect ourselves from them, by setting some rules for engaging with them, but we would also have to make rules to protect them from us.

Wont we?

 

[he_who_is_nobody]

Yes ... but no so loosing it. I understand we would still have culture and it wil eventually (re)evolve around the new concept of alien life. But having the great shock of an actual spaceship landing, eventhough they are peacefull ... will ripple through all of the earth's cultures.

There are still people today that believe we did not land on the moon but that it is a hoax. Mostly old people perhaps, ... but to say ... it will be such an impressive thing to happen ... the results may be catastrophic.

Though, I would argue, that at this point in time, most of the western world will have build up a defence for it, as our culture includes movies and books about it. For most it will not be a shock ... perhaps some will say "Finally!" ... I know I would. But there may be people or peoples that will have more difficulty with it.

Religion would be effected. Suppose the darn thing lands directly on Mekka during the Hadj, or near the Pope when he gives his Eastern speech in Rome on life telivision. Suppose the aliens have a religion of their own.

I know for sure I would yell "finally" ... but my first next question would be "what do they want from us?"

Suppose Germs are not an issue as they are advanged enough to coop with that or only walk around in protective suits, it would remain a cause for concern ofcoure.
I do not believe language per se has to be a problem, as they could have been monitorring our communications for a long time already and learned about us. They would know more about us then we would probably like.

Is it not in the mind of men, to be cautious? To wonder "what are the neighbours doing?" We would need to protect ourselves from them, by setting some rules for engaging with them, but we would also have to make rules to protect them from us.

Wont we?

As I already said, I highly doubt an advanced alien race would just show up one day unexpectedly without sending some sort of first contact message. I think we would know they were coming long before they arrived. This means that are culture would have already had time to cope with the news that "we are NOT alone".

The people that deny the moon landing are what we call nut cases. Furthermore, there are just as many young people that deny the moon landing as there are old people. We will never be able to get rid of nut cases (e.g. Flat Earth Society).

As for religion, that is a good question. I know the Vatican has already declared that the church does not dispute alien life. If there is alien life out there, it is part of god's plan. Other religions would be a huge wildcard though. Nevertheless, I think the religious groups would be the biggest cause for concern if intelligent life were ever found from another planet. I am not sure what many other religious sects would say or do.

If an advanced alien race were able to travel through space to reach our planet, there would be nothing we could do to stop them from doing whatever they wanted. It would be good to be cautious, but if they could travel the vast distances of space, than there could be little we could do to stop them. Any guidelines put into place would have to be enforced by them, because there would be no way for us to impose on them.

Again, I think we would know about intelligent alien life long before they landed on earth. They would send some sort of signal to let us know they were there, at least if they were peaceful. During our first contact, which would be done probably through radio waves, we might try to work out some form of communication. Therefore, you are right that communication would not be a problem by the time they landed.

 

[Ad Initium]

Ouch ... there are actually still ppl that claim the earth is flat? I had no idea.

Silly they are using the internet, ... the very internet that uses tons of oribitals for communication, flying around the earth, which could only fly there with theories based on a round earth.

Silly people.

I guess these guys would love NephilimFree ... another one with claims using twisted unrealistic thinking.



Flat Earth Society, interview with Daniel Shenton, President of the: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oc0trwHSRIA&feature=related

 

[Divergedwoods]

Ouch ... there are actually still ppl that claim the earth is flat? I had no idea.

Silly they are using the internet, ... the very internet that uses tons of oribitals for communication, flying around the earth, which could only fly there with theories based on a round earth.

Silly people.

I guess these guys would love NephilimFree ... another one with claims using twisted unrealistic thinking.


Flat Earth Society, interview with Daniel Shenton, President of the: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oc0trwHSRIA&feature=related

OMG!
Head hurts"¦ feel need to jump of building

 

[obsidianavenger]

Garrr! Jared Diamond.

The premise of Diamond;s work is GG&S is all environmental determinism.

is there an alternative though? you think some groups are inherently superior to others? or that its due to pure luck?

i think he makes a very convincing case tbh. luck probably has quite a bit to do with the general tide of history, but its obvious that some environments are easier to live in than others, and that this can speed up the levels of technological development within a given society. he just takes that concept to its logical conclusion.

also @ BoB, its unlikly that an alien's germs would be able to infect us and vice versa... it would take awhile for them to adapt. its not just two different species, but two different species that evolved in completely different environments. there would likely be some major differences in our biochemistries. its a lot to adapt to.

@ the OP... it depends. sometimes, cultures are completely obliterated. usually what happens is they blend, with each picking up elements of others. i don't see why it would destroy our society at all, especially if they were peaceful. if anything the new opportunities represented might make things less chaotic on earth, because of the possibilities opened up by space travel. no doubt the resulting culture would be unrecognizable to us today, but thats true of any major changes, whether caused from space or from here on earth...

 

[Inferno]

also @ BoB, its unlikly that an alien's germs would be able to infect us and vice versa... it would take awhile for them to adapt. its not just two different species, but two different species that evolved in completely different environments. there would likely be some major differences in our biochemistries. its a lot to adapt to.

I didn't want to point this out (as mentioned above) because it has little to do with the thread, but you're correct. It is likely that they wouldn't have the same DNA as we do, so I fail to see how they could infect us.

 

[budlac]

This story just reminded me of a video by "thatgaybloke"

It is a short story about our first contact with intelligent life.

 

[borrofburi]

also @ BoB, its unlikly that an alien's germs would be able to infect us and vice versa... it would take awhile for them to adapt. its not just two different species, but two different species that evolved in completely different environments. there would likely be some major differences in our biochemistries. its a lot to adapt to.

Not necessarily true, as evidenced by the existence of "invasive species". Taking things out of their normal environmental pressures *can* allow them to flourish, primarily due to the lack of natural predators (in this case, alien immune systems).