God vs the Neutrino

[AnticitizenX]

You have stated already that god/s cannot be detected.

No, I am not saying this (at least not directly). I have repeatedly tried to emphasize that people "detect" God all the time, but that there is a huge difference between the way people detect neutrinos vs the way people detect God. You cannot just summarily declare that God has never been detected, when obviously he has been. People hear his voice, feel his presence, and observe his effects all the time. The onus is therefore on us to explain why these supposed detections are something other than a supernatural sky-daddy. But flatly denying their existence is not useful.

 

[ImprobableJoe]

No, I am not saying this (at least not directly). I have repeatedly tried to emphasize that people "detect" God all the time, but that there is a huge difference between the way people detect neutrinos vs the way people detect God. You cannot just summarily declare that God has never been detected, when obviously he has been. People hear his voice, feel his presence, and observe his effects all the time. The onus is therefore on us to explain why these supposed detections are something other than a supernatural sky-daddy. But flatly denying their existence is not useful.

You've got the burden of proof backwards. If someone claims to have detected "God" then they have the burden of proof to show that a) they actually detected something AT ALL, and b) that what they detected came from a specific supernatural being. It isn't up to anyone else to disprove their claim, they have to present evidence to support their claim.

Otherwise, from a practical standpoint their claim is indistinguishable from a lack of existence of their god or gods.

Let's say you claim to hear the "voice of God". First off, you have to actually demonstrate to other people that you are actually hearing a voice at all. Then, once that is established, we can discuss possible sources of that voice. Until the first part is established to at least some degree of certainty, there's no reason to move on to the second part.

 

[Deleted member 619]

You have stated already that god/s cannot be detected.

No, I am not saying this (at least not directly). I have repeatedly tried to emphasize that people "detect" God all the time, but that there is a huge difference between the way people detect neutrinos vs the way people detect God. You cannot just summarily declare that God has never been detected, when obviously he has been. People hear his voice, feel his presence, and observe his effects all the time. The onus is therefore on us to explain why these supposed detections are something other than a supernatural sky-daddy. But flatly denying their existence is not useful.

Utter fucking guff. It cannot be demonstrated that gods have been detected, regardless of the claims of the fuckwitted and the credulous. All of the alleged detections you describe have far more parsimonious explanations available than celestial peeping-toms, based on well-understood principles.

You're still talking shit. Neutrinos have been detected, gods have not.

 

[AnticitizenX]

You're still talking shit. Neutrinos have been detected, gods have not.

Are you deliberately trying to mis-understanding me? OF COURSE GODS HAVE NEVER BEEN TRULY DETECTED! But that does not change the fact that millions upon millions of people still think they genuinely heard his voice, felt his presence, and constructed huge shrines in his honor. All you have effectively said so far is "nuh uh, dat don't count." You may be technically correct, but it is an empty assertion unless you justify it. The whole point of this discussion is the articulate the specific reasons why particle detectors are compelling but personal testimonies are not. You have to do more than just assert your own conclusion.

 

[ImprobableJoe]

Are you deliberately trying to mis-understanding me? OF COURSE GODS HAVE NEVER BEEN TRULY DETECTED! But that does not change the fact that millions upon millions of people still think they genuinely heard his voice, felt his presence, and constructed huge shrines in his honor. All you have effectively said so far is "nuh uh, dat don't count." You may be technically correct, but it is an empty assertion unless you justify it. The whole point of this discussion is the articulate the specific reasons why particle detectors are compelling but personal testimonies are not. You have to do more than just assert your own conclusion.

That's millions upon millions of people who carry the burden of proof.

And if you don't understand the difference between a particle detector and a personal testimony, you're beyond any hope or help.

 

[Ozymandyus]

Are you deliberately trying to mis-understanding me? OF COURSE GODS HAVE NEVER BEEN TRULY DETECTED! But that does not change the fact that millions upon millions of people still think they genuinely heard his voice, felt his presence, and constructed huge shrines in his honor. All you have effectively said so far is "nuh uh, dat don't count." You may be technically correct, but it is an empty assertion unless you justify it. The whole point of this discussion is the articulate the specific reasons why particle detectors are compelling but personal testimonies are not. You have to do more than just assert your own conclusion.

Millions of people have believed in Thor... Millions have believed in tons of Gods that you presumably would say don't exist. Why do you say those Gods don't exist? The incan gods, the axtec gods, the greek gods, the norwegian gods... all had people that genuinely believed, people that constructed shrines to them and thought they saw their effects on the world.

Personal testimonies don't count because they have been SHOWN to be wrong so many times that we don't depend on them for truth: we look for real evidence to back them up. That is why society moved out of the dark ages, we realized that reason and evidence are far more dependable than faith and personal feelings.

 

[Dockar03]

What im trying to say is, god is as credible as; Santa, The Flying Spaghetti Monster, the genie from Aladdin, and the devious fluro pink armarda of space unicorns that are hovering outside my doorstep.

Scientifically, to detect somthing is to find data that directly correlates to a hypothesis that has been based on firm science; where the results are reliable, accurate and can be falsified. We usually get machines to do it because humans are so good at fucking shit up. Ehh... more specifically, we suck at being reliable (or most of us really).
That is why we use machines, machines are programmed, built and maintained to do a set of specific jobs, that it usually can do to 100% accuracy and reliability.

THAT is why we KNOW Neutrino's exist, because there is tangible, quantifiable data that is correlated to some of the best thinkers this world has to offer.
Then again, grilled cheese sandwiches are pretty fucking good at detecting Jesus and Mary, perhaps we should use grilled cheese sandwiches and bowls of fruit loops to detect Neutrino's instead...
Scientifically, god has and most likely never will be detected, ever; any 'detection' made thus far can be categorised as anecdotal evidence, which to surmise = fail.


I hope you understand us; the point has been made several times already in this thread, and you keep altering your premise. Neutrino data = Cherenkov radiation emissions, and conversely....God data = grilled cheese sandwiches.

Science wins.

 

[Deleted member 619]

Are you deliberately trying to mis-understanding me? OF COURSE GODS HAVE NEVER BEEN TRULY DETECTED! But that does not change the fact that millions upon millions of people still think they genuinely heard his voice, felt his presence, and constructed huge shrines in his honor. All you have effectively said so far is "nuh uh, dat don't count." You may be technically correct, but it is an empty assertion unless you justify it. The whole point of this discussion is the articulate the specific reasons why particle detectors are compelling but personal testimonies are not. You have to do more than just assert your own conclusion.

How dense do you have to be not to understand that those specific reasons have already been categorically stated? The burden of provision of evidence (not proof, because that doesn't apply here) is upon those millionos of believers. No critically robust evidence for any deity has ever been detected, while critically robust evidence for neutrinos has. Neutrino detectors are not subject to such things as chemical imbalances, hallucinations, lies, agenda, emotions, little angels or demons dancing on shoulders, or any other such impairments that the human brain is known to suffer. The human brain is a virtual reality generator par excellence, and the most real-seeming constructs are child's play. Indeed, the reality presented by your brain is not reality, but a model of a small portion of reality. In other words, the human brain cannot be trusted to give an accurate picture of reality. This is not simply a matter of being technically correct, but a categorical fact that defines the difference between the things you're talking about. The technology we use for detecting neturinos is entirely pragmatic. That s the whole argument, and is not just the assertion of a conclusion but is a conclusion that is supported by all of the available evidence.

You're still talking shit, and ignorant shit at that. Perhaps if you bothered to look up the word 'pragmatic' you'd understand just what shit you're talking and why.

 

[TH3-Oval]

You're still talking shit. Neutrinos have been detected, gods have not.

Are you deliberately trying to mis-understanding me? OF COURSE GODS HAVE NEVER BEEN TRULY DETECTED! But that does not change the fact that millions upon millions of people still think they genuinely heard his voice, felt his presence, and constructed huge shrines in his honor. All you have effectively said so far is "nuh uh, dat don't count." .

No, it doesn't count, because the God(s) have never being detected, your forgetting that they are all similar people with similar religions so may all be susceptible to the same delusions of which you speak,

there have been a great many different Gods where people have thought that they genuinely heard their voices, felt their presence, and constructed huge shrines in their honour, if we were to take all the different manifestations of different Gods and say ' we have no actual evidence but alot of people feel this prescence so it must be true' as you have, we find a hell of a lot of conflicts within the stories of each religion when compared to each other, be it polytheistic or monotheistic, so the 'evidence' from a big number of people imagining the prescence of a higher being is false, because in the big picture one religions group of delusions is inconsistent with another.

 

[Lallapalalable]

Meh, you basically said all I was thinking. If making a video, you should be a little more objective towards God, even though your argument claims he is subjective, just to give it a little fairness and make your final blows all the sweeter :twisted:

 

[dentedgoo]

IMO, religion is basically faith and hoping. By practicing prayer, it gives humans hope and in effect brainwashes oneself into believing there is something more than what can be explained...and keeps folks in line. Without some form of spirituality, a person starts to feel out of balance because they can not answer the age old question of why am I here. We can take a photo of something and spend out lives describing it ...and probably get all the answers, but when we are living in a universe that is in motion, everything is constantly changing so it is impossible to completely describe or understand our existence...fun trying though. Hence, once the Sun burns out and the Neutrinos are all gone, God will still be there.

 

[Squawk]

Ok, so against my better judgement I've allowed the above post through, and holy threadres batman. Why choose a thread so old to post in?

 

[dentedgoo]

Hi Squawk,

I really can't believe I actually made that post either and it took me a few minutes before I actually hit send that night. I did a google search for God vs Neutrinos after coming up a similar question on my own...didn't realize the thread was so old but there doesn't seem to be much out there on God vs Neutrinos...lol....glad I found your website. I was kinda surprised when I saw that you posted it after reading more stuff on your site, so thanks, I guess . I've spent my life as an agnostic and have always used drugs to expand my consciousness responsibly for the most part. I'm 42 years old and finally bit off a little more than I could chew last year on the drug side and I checked myself in to detox for Oxycodone....what a mess that was. I have been in aftercare therapy for 4 months by my own choosing and it has caused me to once again open that particularly fuzzy chapter in my book of understanding life....the dreaded God thing. I gotta say it wasn't a fun time in my life but in hindsight and now, I have spoken to hundreds of people about their thoughts on God (mostly former agnostics and atheists) and was really puzzled how these folks got "enlightened".....I would love to be enlightened so in my process of learning, it has really made me put a more open effort into spirituality.
I am an agnostic, deterministic scientist at heart ... I want to be clear on that; I probably wouldn't have found your site otherwise . Basically, if you're an addict, a 12 step program insists that you to believe that there is a power greater than yourself...without this step, one can not progress with the program and will continue to abuse whatever substance or idea that is making your life unmanageable....because you have proven to yourself over and over that you can't quit yourself no matter how successful you are in other aspects of life. This really hit me hard with the statement that self will is bad and you need to give your will over to God if you ever want to get better. Mind you, they don't promote or endorse any religion so you can pray to a fucking doorknob if you feel it's stronger than yourself....lol. For the last 4 completely sober months I have really been trying to believe. It's finally starting to contradict itself once again as I always find holes in every theory. The first step is to be completely honest with yourself and others and I feel that I cannot be honest with myself and believe in God for sure. In my meditation and trying to be one with universe and telling myself God exists, I honestly do not feel it ...I'd love to and I welcome it but...ahem, no...I still would tell a lie swearing on a stack of bibles because it means nothing to me. I DO feel like religion can work but it isdefinitely a form of self hypnosis. Prayer works for the masses and it seems to help me.... but I know it's ME making myself feel physiologically better by taking 10 minutes out of each day for meditation.. I do it selfishly and entirely for me to feel better so I don't think I'm quite a religious or spiritual person...can't give 100% to something that isn't proven.
When I had to pick a power greater than myself as a focal point, I eventually said fuck it.....I believe in the Sun. It's a huge mass of energy that completely affects our lives directly ...and jeez man, if you look directly at it, it will blind you....that's about as close to the definition of God as you can get. So I was saying a prayer to the Sun each day trying to work this program and get the desired effects and I find that it really does help with my sense of well being. I now feel that mind and body cannot truly be balanced without some form of spirituality (self-hypnosis) to hold it together. It's kind of like hearing a song on the radio that brings you back to certain point in your life and gives you a nice feeling. By using this very simple form self hypnosis called prayer it seems that I can tap into a part of my mind that makes my body produce endorphins without drugs....I just feel better when I meditate/pray each day....I'm in awe that the answer could have been this simple all along. I still don't know what the fuck I'm really praying to other than myself, but I definitely have a better understanding of why so many people just give in and believe in something they can't prove. I caught a show about the scientists in Antarctica and one of them started talking about Neutrinos and he seemed to have that same passion and twinkle in his eye that I've seen in devout religious people. With me searching for an answer again, I really feel like I'm closer than ever to understanding it...but in the meantime I feel happy every day and that's the best part of life. So I'm not trying to convert anyone, but I want to suggest to all the scientists to take 10 minutes out of each day for yourself and you alone...it keeps your body in tune..IMO.

After expressing my Sun worship idea to one of my councilors, he said...after the sun burns out God will still be there. Man, I'm still thinking on that one and just wanted to share the phrase on the last post even though it wasn't completely in context of my thoughts at that time...sorry I reread it and it was borderline religious, and that's not me....but I wanted to mix that abstract point with the science because I thought it was trippy .

Great Website, man...glad I found it.

Keep in touch,
Dennis

 

[Andiferous]

It was very difficult to weed through that post. I suggest more paragraph breaks next time, fewer elipses, and shorter paragraphs for ease of reading.

A lot of people are going to give you flack for this post, just to warn you in advance. Mostly because of your terminology.

I believe in the Sun. It's a huge mass of energy that completely affects our lives directly ...and jeez man, if you look directly at it, it will blind you....that's about as close to the definition of God as you can get.

That's a great image. It reminds me of Greek mythology and how looking upon Zeus'(or even Apollo's) true form was blinding. Maybe that's where the idea came from?

Btw, I hope you didn't use the sun because you wanted to impress or make reference to Andromeda's Wake or anything.

So I was saying a prayer to the Sun each day trying to work this program and get the desired effects and I find that it really does help with my sense of well being. I now feel that mind and body cannot truly be balanced without some form of spirituality (self-hypnosis) to hold it together.

Many folks believe meditation is very important to a persons' peice of mind.

I'm not sure it's necessary to "pray" to anything in particular, because meditation is a solitary endeavor (although I think having a focal point may help). But whatever works.

I still cannot sit and "meditate" very effectively, but I think I do it a little bit through music, art, and writing. Some people do it in martial arts, running, and other physical activities.

It's kind of like hearing a song on the radio that brings you back to certain point in your life and gives you a nice feeling.

Ironically, as I said.

But why do you have to call it "sun worship"? Does it help you in the process of meditation - or do you lack a better term for it? Or (not sure how to say tactfully) are you stoned? Of course, you need not answer that one.

 

[dentedgoo]

Thanks for the reply and the warning . I guess I'm just spitting out some feelings tonight. I'm not saying I'm a Sun worshiper, I was more trying to make the point that I found a more peaceful way of living through prayer and meditation and that it wasn't via God and that prayer is a form of self hypnosis and that's why religion is so popular....nothing to do with God...it's a physiological thing. At this point in my life, I really feel like I had a spiritual awakening that had nothing to do with God. I can finally understand why religion works for so many people. As I said, I was kinda forced to believe in something greater than myself if I wanted to proceed forth in this program (or deprogramming) so I had to pick anything (other than a doorknob) to get on with it. I shuffled through all the files in my head about deitys and religions I've studied in my life and I guess I was brought back to simple Greek Mythology and out of all the concepts of religion out there, the sun made the most sense to be a higher power than myself....I never had that before...it was always me, and it still is...but now I understand the concept of religion more. No, I'm not stoned but I've been stoned many times and I'm really enjoying sobriety...it's a very different world now. I used to think that drugs made me abstract and I'm finding that it's my brain and being free from drugs is refreshing. I've had some very insightful times with hallucinogenics but this site doesn't seem to be a place to post my journals.

I am rambling tonight but will try to make smaller paragraphs for you in the future..lol. Been reading some of the other posts and I can definitely weigh in with some hard facts based on physics to try and tear apart some of the theories...just kinda tired of that, spent so much time in school writing papers and then teaching for 10 years about the book facts...gets old; I was trying to throw a more abstract wrench into the gears and this was the site I found that seemed like a good place for my idea. I'm glad that I'm not the only one who typed "God vs Neutrino" into a google search. Heading to bed and this week is busy, but I'll try to do some damage next weekend on the site. Your members seem to be quite arrogant and moody...I like it .

Dennis

 

[Andiferous]

At this point in my life, I really feel like I had a spiritual awakening that had nothing to do with God.

Interesting. I've long wondered if I could experience spirituality without religion or belief. I've heard many others say the same as yourself; that there is a spirituality outside of religion. And from them and you I assume it has nothing to do with the 'soul' (spirit) but in something you feel greater than yourself?

Your progress is admirable and I wish you the best of luck on your journey. It sounds like you have a great system to turn to. I find you a very interesting character.

I am rambling tonight but will try to make smaller paragraphs for you in the future..lol.

Smaller paragraphs are great.

I ramble all the time, as well. I'd love to hear your opinions on other subjects and topics on the forum. This train of thought might not exactly fit the topic (even though I find it interesting myself), but I hope you look around and introduce yourself in the Introductions subforum (within General). It's not a sin to bump old threads (actually, it's encouraged), but it's annoying to the mods to shift them off-topic like this.

Been reading some of the other posts and I can definitely weigh in with some hard facts based on physics to try and tear apart some of the theories...just kinda tired of that, spent so much time in school writing papers and then teaching for 10 years

If you don't mind me asking - and maybe this is better put in an introductory thread - what did you study and teach? (Physics?)

I was trying to throw a more abstract wrench into the gears and this was the site I found that seemed like a good place for my idea.

There's a lot of anti-abstraction feeling around here but there are those of us who can appreciate and do want to hear and understand. Some may agree as well... Lots of forums and topics to choose from.

Your members seem to be quite arrogant and moody...I like it .

Arrogant and moody? Hehe, yes. You like it? Lol. I hated it when I joined. I still do, really, when I see it. I hope you don't think I am.

Not all, mind you, but the atmosphere can seem that way (especially for an outsider). You'll start to see that some people do want to connect with you, if you stick around. There are tens of thousands of members, after all (not all at once. ).

Dennis

Nice to meet you Dennis, and looking forward to seeing you in the Introductions subforum.

And don't mind Squawk when he's a grump.

 

[Anachronous Rex]

You're still talking shit. Neutrinos have been detected, gods have not.

Are you deliberately trying to mis-understanding me? OF COURSE GODS HAVE NEVER BEEN TRULY DETECTED! But that does not change the fact that millions upon millions of people still think they genuinely heard his voice, felt his presence, and constructed huge shrines in his honor. All you have effectively said so far is "nuh uh, dat don't count." You may be technically correct, but it is an empty assertion unless you justify it. The whole point of this discussion is the articulate the specific reasons why particle detectors are compelling but personal testimonies are not. You have to do more than just assert your own conclusion.

Until the 20th Century nearly everyone on Earth was, and I don't throw the term around lightly, racist. Nearly everyone, in every society, everywhere; and most believed this a justifiable position. Ask why - and you can confirm this result with modern anthropology in many areas of the world today - and you get this same sort of evidence: personal testimony, sometimes accompanied by shady references to some difficult-to-verify study, and the "isn't it obvious" assertion.

Why do people think this style of argument okay when the subject is religion?

 

[CommonEnlightenment]

Why do people think this style of argument okay when the subject is religion?

Probably because the 'type' of thinking that is used to defend religion is the 'type' of thinking that some are trying to educate against.

And a shit storm usually takes place.