Getting creationists to accept evolution

[Laurens]

What do you guys think of an approach to debating Creationism in which, rather than simply rebutting creationist claims, one tries to show the creationist that evolution and religious faith can be reconciled? I think that this style of argument could work. As well as just refuting creationist claims also throw in the following arguments.

1. Evolution does not deny God

2. If you are going to posit design then evolution is arguably a more intelligent means of design than creating each 'kind' individually from scratch. (a point made rather well in this video http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qxOEz9aPZNY)

3. There are many, many people who reconcile their religious beliefs with evolution

4. Creationism is seen as ridiculous even by some other Christians

I think this argument has more chance of working because if we can get them to understand that their faith and evolution are not irreconcilable they might be more inclined to accept it. Rather than usual approach of denying their claims outright, if we could show them that they can believe evolution without dumping their God they might be more inclined to accept it.

I know we shouldn't necessarily encourage them to hold on to their belief in God, but I honestly don't think you are going to kill both the belief in creationism, and the belief in God with one stone. Its better to have people who believe in evolution, and God at the same time than people who believe in God, and deny the truth of evolution in my view.

Getting creationists to reconcile their beliefs with evolution would be a step in the right direction.

Whether or not it is possible in practice is another question...

 

[ImprobableJoe]

Try the Socratic Method.

 

[TheFlyingBastard]

I went from being a creationist to accepting scientific theories because I found out I was being deceived and lied to about other things. Being deceived is never fun and made me wonder what else I believed was wrong. And voila, there was QualiaSoup explaining the very basics of evolution in a very simple video...

 

[Aught3]

On the other hand if you can get rid of the belief in god, their belief in creationism becomes completely unjustified. I think you should just take the approach you are more comfortable and competent with. The worst thing you can do is give bad religious or science based arguments that are so easy to swat down that it just ends up reinforcing their beliefs.

Plus you get a diversity of voices which I think is enormously beneficial to any movement.

 

[SpaceCDT]

4. Creationism is seen as ridiculous even by some other Christians

I think it's important to note that the vast majority of Christians accept evolution. Including the Catholic, Anglican and Eastern churches.

In my personal experience the only creationist that I've ever managed to convert is my girlfriend, who comes from a strong fundie family. I think that it is only because she trusts me deeply that she was willing to drop her dogmatic shields and open her mind to scientific concepts. It certainly wasn't because I am persuasive, I wish!

 

[Anachronous Rex]

This does bring up an interesting idea. It's not my own, I've heard it said by Dawkins at least, but....

If your aim is to teach evolution then certainly this approach is appropriate, but if your aim is to kill religion would it not instead be a better strategic move to present theism and science as incompatible?

I mean, if it's either evolution or god, then it should be a no-brainer because the evidence for evolution is overwhelming.

 

[AdmiralPeacock]

 

[lrkun]

Why not get a creationist to accept trial and error/scientific method? Evolution seems like a very big leap. Start with the elemental principles of science.

 

[Squawk]

No idea if I've ever actually managed to convince a creationist of anything, so I'm not really sure what the best policy is. Could really do with a sample of former creationists giving us their own stories of deconversion

 

[SpaceCDT]

No idea if I've ever actually managed to convince a creationist of anything, so I'm not really sure what the best policy is. Could really do with a sample of former creationists giving us their own stories of deconversion

I'll ask my partner what she reckons about her deconversion!

 

[Deleted member 619]

TBH, I don't want to show that acceptance of valid science can be reconciled with religion, because I don't want to give the impression that religious faith can be reconciled with anything. I want to see it gone.

 

[Laurens]

TBH, I don't want to show that acceptance of valid science can be reconciled with religion, because I don't want to give the impression that religious faith can be reconciled with anything. I want to see it gone.

I understand this, but my view is that religious people accepting science is better than religious people not accepting it, and devoting a lot of time to trying to conquer it.

Like I said, I don't think you could get someone to accept evolution if it meant denying their God - that is too big a step. To get them first to abandon creationism would be a step in the right direction.

Also maybe to get them to concede that their beliefs are based only in faith, and are unnecessary would be a good way of rounding things off in this form of argument. (Assuming you could deconvert them from creationism in the first place).

 

[Deleted member 619]

I get that, I really do, but I think that any validation of religion woould constitute a spanner in the works as far as my aims are concerned.

BTW, I provided a detailed rebuttal to your 'Please help... Idiot attack' thread.

 

[Laurens]

BTW, I provided a detailed rebuttal to your 'Please help... Idiot attack' thread.

Cheers, I'll take a look in just a second

 

[Squawk]

I suppose we are looking at two different issues here.

Creationism is simply a blight on society, willing ignorance that attempts to force itself on the masses. The Dover trial had it spot on, we see creationism rearing its deluded head time and time again trying to get some form of parity with science. It needs to be gone, destroyed, good riddance etc and I wouldn't have too many quarms about promoting "moderate" Christianity in order to get rid of it.

However, I also see theism in general as a real problem because it has the power to prevent people from thinking. My standard issue for this is abortion. The abortion debate is a moral one with no clear answer. Should abortion be permitted up to 20 weeks, 24 weeks, banned altogether etc etc? I can make a case for all those, and equally I can offer valid critique of each. The thing is, my critique of them will be my opinion, grounded in my knowledge of developmental biology but also in the work of philosophy and so on and so forth. In short, it will be my opinion.

The religious amongst us are not necessarily free to exercise their own opinion. They have morals dictated to them from a book of myths, and those morals may be in conflict with their instincts, their personal moral compass. For this reason I deem it appropriate to rid the world of religion (or any woo) if it all possible.

Disagree with me all you want, but do it because YOU disagree with me, not because some 2000 year old book tells you to disagree with me.

In short, 2 issues. Bullshit vs Science, then bullshit vs rational thought. Not necessarily the same issue.

 

[Deleted member 619]

I suppose we are looking at two different issues here.

Creationism is simply a blight on society, willing ignorance that attempts to force itself on the masses. The Dover trial had it spot on, we see creationism rearing its deluded head time and time again trying to get some form of parity with science. It needs to be gone, destroyed, good riddance etc and I wouldn't have too many quarms about promoting "moderate" Christianity in order to get rid of it.

However, I also see theism in general as a real problem because it has the power to prevent people from thinking. My standard issue for this is abortion. The abortion debate is a moral one with no clear answer. Should abortion be permitted up to 20 weeks, 24 weeks, banned altogether etc etc? I can make a case for all those, and equally I can offer valid critique of each. The thing is, my critique of them will be my opinion, grounded in my knowledge of developmental biology but also in the work of philosophy and so on and so forth. In short, it will be my opinion.

The religious amongst us are not necessarily free to exercise their own opinion. They have morals dictated to them from a book of myths, and those morals may be in conflict with their instincts, their personal moral compass. For this reason I deem it appropriate to rid the world of religion (or any woo) if it all possible.

Disagree with me all you want, but do it because YOU disagree with me, not because some 2000 year old book tells you to disagree with me.

In short, 2 issues. Bullshit vs Science, then bullshit vs rational thought. Not necessarily the same issue.

I couldn't have expressed it better.

 

[theatheistguy]

If the religious were rational, there'd be no religion.

And while evolution does not rule out a god, it does rule out a literal genesis god or in fact a Christian one.

If evolution is true, Adam and Eve did not exist, they did not fall from grace, sin did not enter the world and therefore Christ died for nothing.

 

[lrkun]

Is it impossible for us to ask creationists to revise their bibles?

 

[Laurens]

Is it impossible for us to ask creationists to revise their bibles?

:lol: Good luck

Although it has clearly already been revised numerous times

 

[Laurens]

If the religious were rational, there'd be no religion.

And while evolution does not rule out a god, it does rule out a literal genesis god or in fact a Christian one.

If evolution is true, Adam and Eve did not exist, they did not fall from grace, sin did not enter the world and therefore Christ died for nothing.

Well that hasn't stopped people from reading Genesis less than literally in the past, and reconciling evolution with their faith.

Adam might have represented a group of early man, likewise with Eve for women :lol:

Basically if you twist the Bible you can get anything you want from it.