Free Speech in Pakistan... how?

[asaadfayyaz]

As you can imagine from subject line, I'm a citizen of Pakistan. For past many years I'v been feeling that absence of free speech is the root of most of the evils in my society. The biggest problem on the way to free speech is no doubt religion here. I'm not a total atheist myself, you can consider me a confused muslim. But I do think of my self a man of reason and believe in the beauty of logic and reasoning.

Back to the topic: I'm not sure but either the religion of Islam is very intolerent towards free speech from its core or the history of abuse of religion by the monarchy/establishment (religion + state mixture) has left no room for free speech/thinking in islam. For example one cannot openly discuss or debate the possibility that 'God does not exist' in public. Its not just the state or the law, its the mentality of our nation. They like censorships. And they want revenge when someone commit the 'crime' of free speech. Our school system is bound to preach the religion of Islam to the children of Muslim parents and therefore forced to challenge and negate the beautiful theories like evolution, bigbang etc. This process end up creating generation after generation of people with suppressed and injured reasoning and thinking.

It may be because of my strong religious background that I still think disrespecting religion, prophets or gods just for the fun of it should be considered in par with at least the crime of racism, and I'm still open to reason for the otherwise.

Please reply with words of advice, suggestions and criticism.

I beg my Pakistani brothers: Please don't think its least of your problem, No, this is why no institution in our country is working and this is how the state is controlling the people. Please discuss

 

[salko7]

free speech and islam....

well it depends on what you want to talk about , some had a debate here if smoking in rammadan would break your fast
that didnt seem to spark any thing .

but talk about something the prophet said or is in the koran and you'v got trouble
even minor stuff like circumcision , hijab(burka) .

this isnt much help i know...but its hard to see any room for free speech other then people say that you are able to but then you'll see them go all crazy about what your saying and try to shut you up so you wont "corrupt" the minds of their children or other people who like you want
to change the way the society works ...especially those who govern the country ,it works for them they have control over the people
they can hunt you down if they want (thats what happening here to shiek al namir) and hes not saying any thing bad he just wants a fair treatment to shia in saudi arabia but ofc he might of went too far in some speeches but you cant blame him.

sorry i cant offer much the only way atm is to keep what ever ideas you have to your self or those that you trust =/

 

[Canto]

You should never worry that "making fun of gods"(and other stuff) is a bad thing, or even think that it should be wrong. Perspective is a wonderful thing, we can poke fun at ancient religions for their silly beliefs, we can and should do the same to modern religions. Religion makes a mockery of humanity all on its own by cramming their supposedly sacred babble into our daily lives. Should I have to be careful NOT to make comments/jokes about God around my extremely religious coworker? Should I have to sit there and take it when she tells me I'm going to hell for not believing in her delusion?

I have freedom of religion and speech as long as I go along with what those who make our laws and run our business believe.

A theocracy is a relic of times that should be long gone.

 

[e2iPi]

A theocracy is a relic of times that should be long gone.

Quite sadly, though, it's not. Religion is still a yoke on the neck of millions of people around the world and those in power will almost never change the rules that help to protect that power. Rapid change such as this must always come from the bottom up rather than from the top down and unfortunately the pioneers of that change often suffer greatly for their convictions.

-1

 

[ladiesman391]

Rapid change such as this must always come from the bottom up rather than from the top down and unfortunately the pioneers of that change often suffer greatly for their convictions.

Not always, granted I think people will suffer greatly for their convictions, but the change will come when someone at the top acknowledges it and encourages (or it enforces) it to be accepted, just as Abraham Lincoln did in the American Civil War....

 

[e2iPi]

Not always, granted I think people will suffer greatly for their convictions, but the change will come when someone at the top acknowledges it and encourages (or it enforces) it to be accepted, just as Abraham Lincoln did in the American Civil War....

Actually, it's much more complex than many history texts make it seem. There was a very large and very powerful abolitionist movement before the Civil War beginning around 1820. There was also a good bit of politicizing, slander and even violence on both sides of the issue. By the time the Civil War actually broke out, Lincoln really had no politically viable options except to make emancipation a goal of the war. The abolition of slavery in the United States did begin as a grass-roots movement.

-1

 

[Epicion]

I was born in Karachi/Pakistan and lived there for 10 years. I also visit every year for 3 months or so.

So, I'll give my input as best as I can.

I'm not going to entertain the thought about Pakistan being Islamic. One of the first things I learned was the amount of hypocrisy in Pakistan regarding religion. We pakistanis speak arabic, learn surah's by heart in arabic and yet never know a single word we utter when we speak. We as a majority follow Islam as a form of social connection with one another, something in common that relates us. We pakistanis never followed Islam. I have yet to see someone who grew their beard, prayed 5 times a day and followed Islam the way a muslim should.

My point is, Islam by itself is malignant. The hypocrisy of Pakistan regarding free speech does not spark from "Islam" as such, It results from them not knowing the answer. Their social structure in schools and colleges are relatively backward as I have studied A levels both here in England and in Pakistan. The gullibility of people in Pakistan is off the roof as common rumours become hard facts the longer they are around. Similar to religious rumours.

This is my analysis of the problem.

In Islamabad, There are liberal and uneducated scholars such as Anis Ahmad the vice chancellor of Ripah university. Their books brainwash an entire nation full of filth and rubbish without a single ounce of evidence. Islam giving "respect" to women forexample is a common one written by such authors. Islam and the "west" is always a second best option for these people to get famous. How does this relate to free speech you say? It does.

Wtih books, and information people learn new points of view. Without information, people are stuck in one mentality. The only way Pakistan can get through its own puddle of rubbish is by education. Only through education can one truly find the inner workings of the world and free themselves from the shackles of religious dogma. Only through information can we hope to negate the brainwashing of years from our parents and their parents one after the other.

So in conclusion, The answer is Education. Get a child, explain evolution,big bang and how everything came to be. Remove the superstitious dogmatic characters such as God or anything divine. Let the child realise just how beautiful the world is without having to turn to "God" to answer questions.

I find Pakistani people to be the worst kind of people in this world. Even though I come out of Pakistan, I would never dare associate myself with them simply because of the way they are brought up. The racist and fascist brainwashing e.g "a white girl is pretty cause she is white", The backward mentality of information e.g "I WONT LISTEN TO YOU UNLESS YOU GET A PHD IN THE SUBJECT!" Seriously, My dad stopped me speaking about evolution in front of him because apparently I need a PHD in biology to mention it.

I hate, the pakistani mentality with a passion as high as the one I hold to educate the illiterate creationists. Atleast illiterate creationists don't know the truth, the literate creationists willfully spread wrongful information and that's a different story altogether.

/Endrant

-Epicion

 

[salko7]

Wtih books, and information people learn new points of view. Without information, people are stuck in one mentality. The only way Pakistan can get through its own puddle of rubbish is by education. Only through education can one truly find the inner workings of the world and free themselves from the shackles of religious dogma. Only through information can we hope to negate the brainwashing of years from our parents and their parents one after the other.

well this depends on the individual and if they want to lean and understand , many people seem to only go to school and get into college JUST to get a job , no passion to lean about the world around them and lets not forget their biological "wiring" if it allows them to have a critical mind , and as you know growing in a religious country your taught that is ok not to question any thing and to be extremely patient and never act to change any thing.

 

[asaadfayyaz]

The answer is Education. Get a child, explain evolution,big bang and how everything came to be. Remove the superstitious dogmatic characters such as God or anything divine. Let the child realise just how beautiful the world is without having to turn to "God" to answer questions.

I totally agree and that is why I'm asking "How"? You have not proposed how to implement this model of education. There is not enough, infact no, call for such liberal education from the masses. The policy makers dare not to bring this up for two reasons:

1. System is working fine for them as it is. Less liberalism mean less accountability.
2. People brainwashed by the clergy (and believe me, they are no minority) are never going to let it happen.

That is where I think we need public awareness on the matter.

I'm looking for answers. One thing which pops times and again in my head is to setup blogs, forums, youtube channels etc. for this cause. So that people of Pakistan at least know what they are missing. It may also reveal to them how much "hypocritic" they appear to the outside world with absence of morality and being so self-righteous. As I'm not a visionary, intellectual or a scolor, infact I'm dangerously uneducated, I believe it is not possible for me alone to pilot a public awareness campaign on national level. People like you who have much wider exposure, education and intellect should feel your duty to play your part. Get like minded folks together and brainstorm.

Its very easy for you to say:

I find Pakistani people to be the worst kind of people in this world. Even though I come out of Pakistan, I would never dare associate myself with them simply because of the way they are brought up

But you cant deny the facts. You and I are Pakistanis. We and our parents help shape the society as it is. The cleaning of every kind of mess is our responsibiliy. The mere facts that you disown your People and your country and that you deny your identity is a part of hypocritic mentality of Pakistani nation.

 

[Canto]

I hate to say it, but if you are looking for an easy solution to the problem, there really is none outside of leaving pakistan. Otherwise, you will have to stand up and fight.

 

[asaadfayyaz]

I hate to say it, but if you are looking for an easy solution to the problem, there really is none outside of leaving pakistan. Otherwise, you will have to stand up and fight.

I am definately not looking for an easy solution. I know these kind of behaviours are inbread some maybe genetic, they take time parting an individual or a society. Quoting Allama Iqbal:

Aaeen-e-no say darna, Tarz-e-Kohan pay arrna
Manzil yehee kathan hai, Qaomon kee zindagi mein

in english:
"Fearing the inevitable, sticking to the traditions
Only this phase is hard, in civilizations' life"

I know the translation lost all the literary aesthetics of the original verse and I know that someone else can give a much better translation.

Coming back, I still don't think the argument that "As you haven't stoodup for your rights for last 50-60 years, why do it now?" is a valid escape from our duty as citizens. We must find an easy or hard way to solve the evils of our society. At least as for my part, pretending to care for a problem, holds higher than denying the existance of an issue or disowning the society.

 

[Epicion]

But you cant deny the facts. You and I are Pakistanis. We and our parents help shape the society as it is. The cleaning of every kind of mess is our responsibiliy. The mere facts that you disown your People and your country and that you deny your identity is a part of hypocritic mentality of Pakistani nation.

You speak as if people haven't tried to give liberal education and not get shot down. I myself got shot down by the Pakistani people, To claim that I am not fulfilling my duty as a form of emotional blackmail via Patriotism is weak.

I don't mind starting a YouTube channel proposing and giving liberal education in Urdu and in English. But these YouTube channels exist.

An example being ThunderF00t, AronRa, DonExodus

Although, I will willingly admit, there is not a decent one for refuting Islam. This is my personal goal to achieve a YouTube account that handles this issue. But for that I need the motivation to come up with something original which has not been covered elsewhere and also the help of others to perform well with Video Editing software and some help in making Flash animation to illustrate how Islam's scientific miracles are flawed and weak.

Coming back, I still don't think the argument that "As you haven't stoodup for your rights for last 50-60 years, why do it now?" is a valid escape from our duty as citizens. We must find an easy or hard way to solve the evils of our society. At least as for my part, pretending to care for a problem, holds higher than denying the existance of an issue or disowning the society.

I'll make this as clear as possible. Are you asking for help in propagating education? If so. I'm in and I'll help. If anything, you have one person who wishes to help in some way. You don't need alot of people and I think the misconception you have is that you'd make a topic and 200 people will sign up. It does not work that way. A idea is in a mind of a single person upon conception, to propagate, one must show it's works.

E.g, start the education and propagation. Show people their errors and if any single one of them are humble and honest. They will join your movement. If they are not, they won't. It's as simple as that. On my part, It's nothing to do with patriotism or the fact that it's my country.

It's to do with principles. I think I speak for everyone here that if we were specifically needed anywhere, we'd help.

You can PM me for any details regarding any YouTube channel you want to start, discuss topics and what you want to create and what types of things you want tackles. I'll help in whatever small way I can with my limited abilities.

-L

 

[bruhaha2]

Oh man, that is awful Asaad. I know it would take a great toll on my self respect and dignity to be oppressed in this way. I would like to quote Mark Twain in saying, "All gentle cant and philosophizing to the contrary notwithstanding, (the first part is such word candy, but for the most part can be ignored) no people in this world ever did achieve their freedom by goody-goody talk and moral suasion: it being immutable law that all revolutions that will succeed, must begin in blood. " I've always liked that quote, it gave me such fervor for my own circumstances, but it's most unfair and unjust that people must live in this way.

I would also like to use a quote I've read more recently to strengthen your resolve. It's a quote by Denis Diderot (a french philosopher of the 18th century), "Man will never be free until the last king is strangled with the entrails of the last priest. "

Is there anything being done about this? Can anything be done?

 

[asaadfayyaz]

You speak as if people haven't tried to give liberal education and not get shot down. I myself got shot down by the Pakistani people, To claim that I am not fulfilling my duty as a form of emotional blackmail via Patriotism is weak.

The reason for this discussion here is to find a tactical and effective approach to the successful widespread awareness of liberalism and its necessity. You know the solution/approach will be unique to our environment which inturn mean we have to sacrifice some minor freedoms (e.g. the freedom to disrespect gods/prophets) initially. As I'v already said, I'm not an 'all knowing being' or being guided by one. As more people participate we'll have a better view of our problem and of its solution. I think someone among us should find a way to interpret things discussed here (or anywhere for that matter) into some sort of Standard Operating Procedures. Lets get a bit organised to counter an organised religion. 'OrganisedLiberals' catchy?? The problem we need to avoid is the back-pressure (video). We cant afford strong opposition at the very start.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ex4O5z_ig2g

I don't mind starting a YouTube channel proposing and giving liberal education in Urdu and in English. But these YouTube channels exist. An example being ThunderF00t, AronRa, DonExodus. Although, I will willingly admit, there is not a decent one for refuting Islam. This is my personal goal to achieve a YouTube account that handles this issue

I'm a big fan and a subscriber of ThunderF00t myself. infact he is the reason I'm having this discussion with you. The difference is, these guys are doing the maintenance work for 'the machinery of liberalism'. For most of our Pakistani brothers, its just too much 'neural network breakdown' to handle. At most he'll watch this stuff with an awe and in the end say "Gora pagal hai!". Secondly, targetting the proper audience needs some customization. For success, I think our aim should never be refuting Islam as it'll make the layman pakistani very defensive and not receptive to reasoning. To say it simply, the aim should be the promotion of the idea that in case of a conflict between religion and the reason, one should choose reason.

I'll help in whatever small way I can with my limited abilities.

Now that is the spirit! I know there are millions out there who are going to share our enthusiasm by the time, but that is where natural laws take over. If we can put enough energy into this thing for a longer period of time, no wonder better brains will come forward to take control. I'm not really good at anything but I'll try to keep up to you if you start now. please feel free to ask me for anything in terms of labour/time. I have no experience of video editing but if you can provide me some clips and audio, I can try the rest. 'Thinking' is natural to me, its the 'doing' part I need guidance for. Welcome to the cause

 

[asaadfayyaz]

Is there anything being done about this? Can anything be done?

The reason for this discussion is to find a sustainble solution. People like you who are enjoying better liberty should also play your part in helping those struggling for very basic rights. History has shown times and again that you cannot live happy if theres religious or political oppression somewhere else in the world. I'm sorry to say that most of it is funded by the corporate greed of the west.

Thanks for the nice quotes. Mark Twain always inspired me alongwith Voltaire and some others. The Twain quote is holding true for our situation. The blood spilled by terrorism and in the name of 'war against terrorism' is just too much and more than enough for the history to enter a new phase. What I hope to see is people pay the blood its due respect and change for its sake.

 

[bruhaha2]

The reason for this discussion is to find a sustainble solution. People like you who are enjoying better liberty should also play your part in helping those struggling for very basic rights. History has shown times and again that you cannot live happy if theres religious or political oppression somewhere else in the world. I'm sorry to say that most of it is funded by the corporate greed of the west.

You should give more details on how one plays his part, or did you already say in a previous post? I'll go back over them again.

Ah, you're asking for any genuine help. Some good people that I would suggest asking are the people of this website: http://www.atheist-experience.com/

Their time zone is central, and I already did the math for Pakistani time. You are 11 hours ahead of them, meaning when they start their show at 4:30pm(1630) on Sunday, you will be watching them at 3:30am (0330) on Monday. Until that time this weekend, you can watch some of their shows by clicking on the "Show Archive" link on the left hand side and then clicking "video".

I'm not sure how much they know of the Quran, but I have heard them speak about Islam and they may try to help, and if anything it's a start at getting the right information. I'll try to call them this weekend too about this information if you are unable to get through.

 

[asaadfayyaz]

I'm not sure how much they know of the Quran, but I have heard them speak about Islam and they may try to help, and if anything it's a start at getting the right information. I'll try to call them this weekend too about this information if you are unable to get through.

You know i have a very interesting clerification to make. I'm not presenting myself as an atheist here. I told earlier, I consider myself a muslim. I'm not looking for arguments to convert muslims to atheism OR vice versa. According to my belief, religion is a personal thing and state and society should be free from any religious influence. By this discussion i seek to get in touch with like minded people who are willing to participate in an awareness campaign for free speech and liberalism in Pakistan. The discussion was started in 'religion & irreligion' section because of the natural conflict of organised religion with liberalism.

 

[bruhaha2]

You know i have a very interesting clerification to make. I'm not presenting myself as an atheist here. I told earlier, I consider myself a muslim. I'm not looking for arguments to convert muslims to atheism OR vice versa. According to my belief, religion is a personal thing and state and society should be free from any religious influence. By this discussion i seek to get in touch with like minded people who are willing to participate in an awareness campaign for free speech and liberalism in Pakistan. The discussion was started in 'religion & irreligion' section because of the natural conflict of organised religion with liberalism.

That is fine, I wasn't trying to push atheism on you, but these fellows have started a broadcast of there own (currently it's only broadcast over the internet because their studio is being renovated) and they might give you some ideas, or offer some help. I assure you they believe in absolute freedom of religion or the lack of.

I'm honestly just grasping at straws because I don't know what I can do, so I was just making an offering.