Fear that Evolution is true?

[WolfAU]

I've basically gotten to the point where in my mind that disputing evolution in the basic sense of the concept is just no longer a valid argument.

As such I'm forced to wonder why so many thiests (and some non-thiests) refuse to accept it, and the conclusion that I've come too is that they simply don't like the implications of it... They see it as meaning that humans are not special, we don't have some divine nature that rises us above animals. A common argument I keep hearing from thiests being 'you tell people they're animals, they will act like animals', though this shows what I see as a twisted view of what defines an animals, we can see incredible virtue among animals and levels of complex sadistic pleasure in humans that animals lack.

Is this a fair belief to cling to, or are these people being very petty? Do they need the belief that humans are divine, and something beyond the limits of this world? If so their faith seems contradictory as many Christian sects focus heavily on the fallability of man. I for one have great respect for animals and I have some understanding of concepts like self awareness and concept of self so I think I can understand why humans have traits different to animals, while having respect for both humans and animals.

I also see paralleles to the church's denial of round earth and sun-centric models of the solar system.

Thoughts? Comments?

 

[buzzausa]

I'm with you that denying evolution is just ridiculous, especially if one's denial stems from an unquestioned and misguided reliance on religious dogma.

I have also heard people adamantly arguing that humans are not animals...which goes back to what you were pointing out about the need to believe in some higher, "divine" purpose for man.

But you were asking if this was a fair belief to cling to. I would have to say yes. See, I am not bothered by beliefs; what enrages me is people (your Hovind, Hamm etc.) dressing their beliefs with a thin layer of pseudo-science and demanding they be recognized (and taught) as a legitimate alternative to real science.

But there are people who genuinely believe that a benevolent higher power is watching over them, but are not so ignorant as to deny hundreds of years of scientific achievements just because "god said it, I believe it, that settles it" (you heard that one before haven't you?). One doesn't necessarily have to abandon all logic to be a believer.

So if one feels that a divine plan is in place for him or her I am certanly not going to tell them that that's not a fair feeling to have.

 

[Aught3]

I think what drives this is the need to have an internally consistent worldview. It can be as crazy as hell yet they will still believe it because there is no tension in their minds between beliefs and reality; they simply deny reality.

 

[WolfAU]

Well I've heard some theists basically say words to the effect of 'If humans are descendant from animals than there is no real system of morality (ie understanding of right/wrong)'. Which to me is one hell of a stretch, and there are similar arguments (though most seem to focus on Godlessness rather than evolution itself).

Yes I'm familiar with the 'God said it...' argument... nothing screams revelling in blissful ignorance and antintellectual ('screw what science says') attitude quite like it, especially given how impossible it is to assert what is and isn't God's will (if he spoke clearly to religious figures, then why did they fight against round earth and sun centric science, things we now know to be true).

Would do wonders for me accepting the validity of Faith's if they were more humble in terms of asserting divine will, but they're not. Every asshole seems to be more than happy to share their thoughts about what God's will is, and there is very little consistancy, especially with two warring armies both asserting God is on their side.

 

[atheismforthewin]

A common argument I keep hearing from thiests being 'you tell people they're animals, they will act like animals', though this shows what I see as a twisted view of what defines an animals, we can see incredible virtue among animals and levels of complex sadistic pleasure in humans that animals lack.

Win Quote is Win.

Security from superiority is a fundamental function of theists. It is so fundamental, that the reasonable, factual, and logical part of their brains will cease in order to maintain it.

 

[JacobEvans]

I agree with Aught.

When forced to choose between a comfortable world view that is irrational, and a truthful yet (for them) uncomfortable world view, these people tend to choose comfort.

 

[Mapp]

Well the problem for Christians is that if the Genesis story is not true, then the sacrifice Jesus made was meaningless. Their most basic point is that all of humanity is sinful, worthless and disgusting, that we're bound for hell because Eve and Adam ate a piece of fruit. It was this original sin that made us all sinners, and thus, required God to take on human form and sacrifice himself to himself. That way we're still worthless, sinful, debased and disgusting, but we have a loophole that allows us, through belief to avoid eternal damnation. The theory of evolution meanwhile, has nothing it that proves that mankind is immoral, worthless, etc. It's mountains of scientific data run counter to the story that all animals were created simultaneously and man and woman lived naked in a garden.

The Genesis creation story is thus, critical to validate the entire system, and true believers take one of two tracks. Either they simply ignore the evidence and state that there is nothing that can convince them, that the creation story isn't true (the intellectually honest idiots) and those that attempt to disprove evolution by poking holes in the theory assuming that by doing so the Genesis story automatically becomes true (the intellectually dishonest idiots).

 

[Jotto999]

A common argument I keep hearing from thiests being 'you tell people they're animals, they will act like animals', though this shows what I see as a twisted view of what defines an animals, we can see incredible virtue among animals and levels of complex sadistic pleasure in humans that animals lack.

I also see paralleles to the church's denial of round earth and sun-centric models of the solar system.

For me, those two quotes hit the nail on the head. Well said.

I really hate how religious people often imply that humans are somehow special or divine. It's arrogant and simply untrue.

--"The monkeys want to be something else. But they're not."
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=a15KgyXBX24

 

[Sleazy]

I agree with Aught.

When forced to choose between a comfortable world view that is irrational, and a truthful yet (for them) uncomfortable world view, these people tend to choose comfort.

Is it then surprising that these are the same group of people who would sacrifice their rights for a little security.

 

[JacobEvans]

Is it then surprising that these are the same group of people who would sacrifice their rights for a little security.

Well I don't think religiosity is necessarily correlated to that. Not everyone on the "Right" is on the "Religious Right"

 

[Epicion]

Search the following

Harun Yahya+Evolution
Zakir Naik+Evolution
Yusuf Estes+Evolution
Bilal Phillips+Evolution

On Youtube or google.

In Harun Yahya's case, only he has gone as far as to relate Evolution to Nazis and said they used it as a justification that they were the superior beings. It's all in a short video he got produced.

People are brain washed into believing this. Religious people are those who have had little or no science education. Just yesterday I spoke to my dad about how he thought earthquakes occured and he mentioned that the plates underneath us crack and therefore there is a earth quake.

My neighbours argued that Mountains "stabilise" the planet by embedding themselves in plates. When I explained that they were signs of the INSTABILITY of the planet e.g Mountains are caused by instability, he just refused my explanation.

It really is people who lack education that fall into the dogma of religion and only through education can we pull people out of it. Although, it depends. If they are fundamentally religious, there is a higher chance they will not believe in God, but if someone is passive, they will attach "God must hav done it" to every statement you make. Therefore, some people can not be pulled from religion.

-Epicion

 

[e2iPi]

It really is people who lack education that fall into the dogma of religion and only through education can we pull people out of it.

Truer words have never been spoken.

I sincerely hope that some future generation will live in a world where people no longer run from the light of truth, clinging to bronze age beliefs and killing in the name of Yahweh or Jesus or Allah or Krishna or Buddha (I've never heard of this one, but I'm not discounting it) will be a thing of the past.

Life becomes much more precious when we realize this is our one and only chance to leave the world a little better than we found it.

-1

 

[ZPrime]

not all people get the luxury of choosing the comforting fables, some (sadly many of my friends) are indoctrinated and know, nothing else, if in fact that are even able to perceive anything else. I've met one person that was indoctrinated in such away that when his religious view where/are conflicted by something, he shuts down, and goes into a day dream, when he wake from it, he remembers nothing about what conflicted with his religion.
Just remember some people have a hard time think rationally when they are indoctrinated, or when dealing with a subject that their parents consider unacceptable. granted the latter effect wears off as the individual matures and moves out to make their own way in the world.

 

[e2iPi]

I've met one person that was indoctrinated in such away that when his religious view where/are conflicted by something, he shuts down, and goes into a day dream, when he wake from it, he remembers nothing about what conflicted with his religion.

If this were done in the name of something other than religion, it would be considered abuse.

-1

 

[rulezdaworld0]

I think the basic conclusion here would be that theists simply have nothing to fall back on if their creation story wasn't true. Their whole life would have revolved around religion, if that is taken away, what are they left with? Nothing, and their life falls apart.
As we are all well aware, fear is a powerful tool, by both a king and a peasant. Eternal life... reality is nothing compared to an (empty) promise like that.

In a way you can pity them...