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arg-fallbackName="scalyblue"/>
The only way radiometric dating could be falsified is by demonstrating a mechanism by which the Strong Interaction and Weak Force can be dynamically altered.

Considering we as a species do not have enough information as to how these forces could be influenced, and the assumption that matter with mass that takes up volume and moves forward through time currently exist attests to these forces remaining constant for all observable phenomina, we must base our projections on these assumptions..

An omnipotent being could cause these forces to change by proxy of being omnipotent, but that answer does not provide a useful solution that one can draw projections from.

The Earth has been observed to be approxomately 4.4GY old. This is supported by many, many concurrent, overlapping, and independantly derived observations.

Let me make an analogy that I believe you may appreciate.

If somebody in the far future with the inability to translate English discovers The Two Towers. They find a tome with a count of approxomately 160000 words. They may even be able to derive from the book, the grammar and syntax of the language even if the words themselves are a mystery.

If ten people found ten fragments that were each a third of a copy and assembled them, they would still come together to count 160000 words.

If there were ten thousand people who found ten thousand overlapping chunks of the book, even if some of the passages are smudged, even if some of the letters are unrecognizable, I'll wager that they could at least come close to determining that there are 160000 words.

If 160,000 people came together, each with a single word from the same copy of the book torn from each other, given enough time and enough precision the book could conceivably be reassembled. One would need to spend a great amount of care in matching the edges together, surely some pieces would be missing, but I'll bet the end product could still be recognized and matched up to other copies of the book to correct any errors in both the other copies and the fragmented copy.

They may not understand the language that it is written in, but within a margin of error the number of words cannot be disputed, The only way to change the number of words would be to change the definition of what a word is.

You are arguing with people who have found most of the book thousands of times over, scattered everywhere windward and earthbound. The book has been assembled millions of times, and every single time it comes together in nearly the same way.

I'll be the first to say that we don't have the whole story. We don't know who Gandalf the Grey was, we never saw Moria, we don't know how Frodo came to geth the Ring, we cheered at Helm's Deep, we wept for the Ents of Isengard, and we know that Frodo was alive, and taken by the Enemy.

We are peering into the heavens to look for pieces of Fellowship. We are squinting at the fundamental pieces of Atoms, looking for pieces of Return of the King. I, for one, want to know what happened to this Ring of Power that everybody's fighting over.

You're waving around your copy of The Cat in the Hat. It's fanciful, it has some good morals and some bad ones, and it helps children go to sleep at night, but it is not going to tell me how the story ends.
 
arg-fallbackName="Dragan Glas"/>
Greetings,
Justice Frangipane said:
Really, I want to know almost all of it. I don't want to be ignorant of any of the topics that would come up when someone really wants to know, are there errors in the Bible? How is the age of the earth determined? What are the arguments on both sides. What are the weaknesses on both sides?

I will say that I really want to be on the side of truth. Which I, like basically everyone on this forum believes is the route that we are currently on. (or why would you be on it?) However, I do agree that there are many Many things that I WANT to be true regardless of the evidence. So yes, there won't be an EASY switch to anything for probably anyone here. Of course that is an assumption and I don't know you all. I think it would be silly to consider yourself an intelligent or informed individual and to radically change your entire world view in a few short minutes, months and sometimes even years. So I appreciate you guys being willing to share with me what you know and how you know it and how you apply what you know to get to your conclusions based off that evidence.

I am not an idiot as some have suggested. But yes, there are terms and concepts that I have yet to learn. I think that for most of us, we realize that the origin of a question has little to do with the actual validity of the question. That sometimes (not always) the questions asked by the people who have been through the same schooling (sometimes indoctrination, on both sides) that we ask the same questions over and over. Having our eyes trained to see what our brains tell it exists, or doesn't exist.

I want to start by learning more about the radioactive dating. I would also like to dispel immediately the concept that "ICE CORE" dating is not a valid dating method. One of the big issues that many people face is being told that there are Many MANY different ways that something is true, that it must be true. This is not true. There can be many MANY ways in which we come to the same wrong conclusion. Yes! I agree, it isn't how it always happens. In fact it is typically rare when mounting concurrences play towards a lie. But it does happen.
Although one might argue that either possibility - being right or wrong given multiple concurrences - is equal, this is not the case because what distinguishes these possibilities is the quality of the evidence. It is the qualitative difference between primary and secondary sources. Or, to borrow the title of one of Susan Haack's essays, "Knowledge and Propaganda".
Justice Frangipane said:
Ice core dating is one. doesn't work.
recapitulation theory is another
vestigial structures is another
These are quite extraordinary claims.
Justice Frangipane said:
Not attempting to start a war here but majority obviously doesn't define truth.. Even when its a majority of fields. I think that often people stop looking critically at the information when there is a variety of fields "verifying" the same conclusion. I think that with each additional concurrent validation people become more and more in danger of sloppy conclusions.

The value of this information is undeniably huge. I can not simply accept blindly the words of others without apply what I can to TRULY understanding the concepts behind the conclusions. I believe that most people here feel the same way.
The problem - or, at least, part of the problem - in making the above claims is that you obviously have accepted the words of others without being aware of the (lack of) quality of their sources.
Justice Frangipane said:
So I would like to learn and ask questions and not be on the "other" side. I want to ask questions without being treated like an idiot for having a real question. So maybe we can try this again and see if I can present my questions in a better way.
We'll accommodate you as best we may - but you are going to find it hard to have your beliefs challenged.

Kindest regards,

James
 
arg-fallbackName="he_who_is_nobody"/>
Justice Frangipane said:
Ice core dating is one. doesn't work.

Yes it does.
Justice Frangipane said:
recapitulation theory is another

Again, you display your ignorance by bringing up something that has been debunked for over 100 years. What was the point of that?
Justice Frangipane said:
vestigial structures is another

Vestigial structures do exist, both by the actual definition used by science and ones that exist using the creationist’s bastardized definition of the word (my favorite for the latter are the muscles found around the human ear).

Once again, you put your ignorance on display for all to see. Five minutes of searching for this on your own would have given you all the same results I found for you here. You claim to want to know the truth about the world around you, yet I see no effort on your part to seek that truth out.
 
arg-fallbackName="he_who_is_nobody"/>
Inferno said:
he_who_is_nobody said:
Vestigial structures do exist, both by the actual definition used by science and ones that exist using the creationist’s bastardized definition of the word (my favorite for the latter are the muscles found around the human ear).

I have that muscle, meaning I can move my ear. Pretty awesome way to pick up women. :p

I know, I remember you pointing this out a while back. However, the muscles usually never develop in humans, and when they do (such as in your case) humans are only able to wiggle their ears. Those muscles are supposed to be used to move the ear like dogs and cats can move them.

A similar muscle complex exists in the human foot, which once controlled the big toe, back when the human foot looked like an ape foot. Those muscles, while still existing, cannot control the big toe at all. However, I could not find a good website link for that one, thus used the ears instead.
 
arg-fallbackName="Justice Frangipane"/>
A omniscient "God" would know that we would be misled by the inherent contradiction in an apparently young Earth and a equally apparently old Earth.

Why create us in a way that we could be so misled?

It is to argue that "God" creates souls to fail and burn in Hell for all eternity - for no fault of our own but, rather, one intrinsic to our "making". Despite our allegedly being made "in His image" - which appears to imply that our "fault" is a mirror of "God's".

Such an outcome - our propensity to be misled - necessarily does not speak well of the "goodness" of "God", given such omniscience.

I'm gonna try to answer the question underneath the question. So let me know if I totally get what you're stating wrong. Be forewarned, this is not a scientific response and shouldn't be analysed as such.

First, I have to say, I have struggled with the same exact concepts. Why would God make some for destruction, some for what seems like the explicit purpose of failing. The concept is a really tough one. Here is my take.

The Bible tells us a few things that I believe we need to understand to understand this concept. We are told by God to "humble ourselves" over and over in the Bible. It is one of the most prevalent commandments. Why? What is wrong with pride? I think that when people let their minds become "hardened" that we become in danger of cracking and shattering. We as people are continually compared to clay vessels. We are told to keep our hearts soft and our minds humble to keep from breaking. We all live in a hard world and sharp dramatic change is almost a guarantee in this life. How do you survive sharp dramatic change if you are hardened? You break. You may die or you may continue on broken and many do but to be fully alive a person needs to be changeable and adaptable. When God says to stay humble, that is our job, His job is like the sun, to shine down onto the world and provide it with light and warmth. If I were the sun, and I knew that almost everything would benefit from my warmth and light except a hardening piece of clay, I would out of my goodness warn the clay to constantly keep itself from getting hardened so it doesn't suffer unnecessary harm.

Does the sun harden clay? Yes. Does the very nature of God harden some and grow others? I would say, "Yes!". But where is the responsibility? If to have free will we have responsibility for our actions and we also have a loving God who made us that way, I would think that He would try very hard to make sure we had some type of warning or instruction manual was available for our protection.

If a person buys themselves a phone and after a few days of use notices the phone is dirty so they proceed to places it in the dishwasher to clean. Will the phone breaking be because of manufacturer defect, or ignorance of the owner? Should everything we own be immune to all elements? What about wood to a fire? Should it be immune to the destructive power of fire? It sure would make it hard to get warm. What about removing the power of water to get things wet? How will we clean things?

Life is like this. Each thing has certain purposes, some constructive and others when used for what they are not intended or designed for, for destruction. So if I design a product and I know certain things will destroy it, I will try to make that known. Can I force EVERYBODY to read my instructions? No, I can't. That's not even an real option (in my opinion).

So God tells us, stay humble or you'll break. Did God break us? The Bible says clearly that God doesn't desire for ANY to perish. It says that pride destroys people. He is the God that says, if your lonely, hurting, broken to come to Him and He will give you rest, peace, and a hope for the future.

I do not believe Him to be an evil God.

But to allow people the choice of evil??? He could have made us and put us alone in a padded room, unable to love or hurt another. But we have a high capacity for hate and evil ONLY in relation to our capacity for love and joy. We may wish for a reality of nothing but strawberries and sunshine but if the PURPOSE of the created object is not self fulfillment but the fulfillment of another task, it would be prudent to find out that task and find a way to be put to good use. It might even keep some from breaking to know what we were designed for.

Jesus came to save the world not condemn it. But how many christians, family members and others have done the opposite and caused pain and hurt and rejection to us. How many times has the pride of christians hurt us? Is that Gods fault? If one were to celebrate the gift of a brand new car with drunken driving and crashes the new car, do we blame the manufacturer? Why did you give me this broken car!

I will publicly apologize for the mistakes Christians have made in listening to their pride instead of God's word. I believe that regardless of your scientific views that many have been hurt by ignoring God's warnings and guidance. I am guilty of this and have been trying to stay humble to keep from this mistake. Constant daily struggle. But important. =)

Dragan Glas I hope I didn't completely miss your question. =)
 
arg-fallbackName="Inferno"/>
I think you utterly failed to answer the question. You answered the question "why is there evil?", Dragan's question was "why would God lie to us?".
Try again.
 
arg-fallbackName="he_who_is_nobody"/>
Justice Frangipane said:
There can be many MANY ways in which we come to the same wrong conclusion. Yes! I agree, it isn't how it always happens. In fact it is typically rare when mounting concurrences play towards a lie. But it does happen.

Give an example of this ever being the case.
 
arg-fallbackName="Justice Frangipane"/>
@inferno

I believe The original question was why would God lie. I do think the question changed. But perhaps I'm wrong. Perhaps dragan glas can clarify for us. I think the question changed into why would God create people specifically to destroy them. That was what I attempted to answer.
What are your thoughts on my explanation? How would you answer that question (even if you don't believe in God)
 
arg-fallbackName="Justice Frangipane"/>
HWIN
I know your asking for an example but is that just busy work? Do you believe that if the majority of data confirms something that something MUST be true?

I'm only suggesting that it doesn't guarantee truth

HWIN would you agree that the majority of opinion, even the majority of conclusions doesn't mean the answer MUST be true.
 
arg-fallbackName="Dragan Glas"/>
Greetings,
Justice Frangipane said:
A omniscient "God" would know that we would be misled by the inherent contradiction in an apparently young Earth and a equally apparently old Earth.

Why create us in a way that we could be so misled?

It is to argue that "God" creates souls to fail and burn in Hell for all eternity - for no fault of our own but, rather, one intrinsic to our "making". Despite our allegedly being made "in His image" - which appears to imply that our "fault" is a mirror of "God's".

Such an outcome - our propensity to be misled - necessarily does not speak well of the "goodness" of "God", given such omniscience.
I'm gonna try to answer the question underneath the question. So let me know if I totally get what you're stating wrong. Be forewarned, this is not a scientific response and shouldn't be analysed as such.
As Inferno pointed out, you answered a related question rather than the one I asked.
Justice Frangipane said:
First, I have to say, I have struggled with the same exact concepts. Why would God make some for destruction, some for what seems like the explicit purpose of failing. The concept is a really tough one. Here is my take.

The Bible tells us a few things that I believe we need to understand to understand this concept. We are told by God to "humble ourselves" over and over in the Bible. It is one of the most prevalent commandments. Why? What is wrong with pride? I think that when people let their minds become "hardened" that we become in danger of cracking and shattering. We as people are continually compared to clay vessels. We are told to keep our hearts soft and our minds humble to keep from breaking. We all live in a hard world and sharp dramatic change is almost a guarantee in this life. How do you survive sharp dramatic change if you are hardened? You break. You may die or you may continue on broken and many do but to be fully alive a person needs to be changeable and adaptable. When God says to stay humble, that is our job, His job is like the sun, to shine down onto the world and provide it with light and warmth. If I were the sun, and I knew that almost everything would benefit from my warmth and light except a hardening piece of clay, I would out of my goodness warn the clay to constantly keep itself from getting hardened so it doesn't suffer unnecessary harm.

Does the sun harden clay? Yes. Does the very nature of God harden some and grow others? I would say, "Yes!". But where is the responsibility? If to have free will we have responsibility for our actions and we also have a loving God who made us that way, I would think that He would try very hard to make sure we had some type of warning or instruction manual was available for our protection.

If a person buys themselves a phone and after a few days of use notices the phone is dirty so they proceed to places it in the dishwasher to clean. Will the phone breaking be because of manufacturer defect, or ignorance of the owner? Should everything we own be immune to all elements? What about wood to a fire? Should it be immune to the destructive power of fire? It sure would make it hard to get warm. What about removing the power of water to get things wet? How will we clean things?

Life is like this. Each thing has certain purposes, some constructive and others when used for what they are not intended or designed for, for destruction. So if I design a product and I know certain things will destroy it, I will try to make that known. Can I force EVERYBODY to read my instructions? No, I can't. That's not even an real option (in my opinion).

So God tells us, stay humble or you'll break. Did God break us? The Bible says clearly that God doesn't desire for ANY to perish. It says that pride destroys people. He is the God that says, if your lonely, hurting, broken to come to Him and He will give you rest, peace, and a hope for the future.
Firstly, you're assuming that the Bible was written by or "inspired" by "God". This is not the case.

Secondly, in your last paragraph, you imply that "God" doesn't want or cause anyone's destruction - the OT is evidence enough that this statement is clearly not true.

One obvious example is where pharaoh, having let the Israelites go, is forced by "God" to pursue them - "God hardened Pharaoh's heart". Clearly, this had nothing to do with human pride or any other human flaw. This was strictly down to "God".

This is not the act of a omnibenevolent "God".

And we don't need to explore the "terrible texts" of the OT, as John Shelby Spong called them, where all sorts of genocide, etc, was committed at the behest of "God", to see how much evil is done by "God".
Justice Frangipane said:
I do not believe Him to be an evil God.
There lies the problem: if "God" isn't evil, how can he - not only allow - but cause evil?

To say that this must be for a "greater good" does not suffice: it is sophistry.
Justice Frangipane said:
But to allow people the choice of evil??? He could have made us and put us alone in a padded room, unable to love or hurt another. But we have a high capacity for hate and evil ONLY in relation to our capacity for love and joy. We may wish for a reality of nothing but strawberries and sunshine but if the PURPOSE of the created object is not self fulfillment but the fulfillment of another task, it would be prudent to find out that task and find a way to be put to good use. It might even keep some from breaking to know what we were designed for.

Jesus came to save the world not condemn it. But how many christians, family members and others have done the opposite and caused pain and hurt and rejection to us. How many times has the pride of christians hurt us? Is that Gods fault? If one were to celebrate the gift of a brand new car with drunken driving and crashes the new car, do we blame the manufacturer? Why did you give me this broken car!

I will publicly apologize for the mistakes Christians have made in listening to their pride instead of God's word. I believe that regardless of your scientific views that many have been hurt by ignoring God's warnings and guidance. I am guilty of this and have been trying to stay humble to keep from this mistake. Constant daily struggle. But important. =)

Dragan Glas I hope I didn't completely miss your question. =)
The fact is there is no need for a "God" to explain good in the world - or evil, for that matter.

"Natural" evils - disasters of various kinds - happen all the time: people are caught in the wrong place at the wrong time. As a result, they're not really "evils".

The term is - and, in my view, should only be - applied to those involving intent, where people commit crimes and/or atrocities.

However, these can be explained by human nature - evolved situational behaviour, as Zimbardo explained in "The Lucifer Effect".

The bottom line to my question is: why create anything (souls) at all if you know they're going to be damned for all eternity?

A truly , omnibenevolent "God" can only create souls that will go to Heaven - never Hell.

Kindest regards

James
 
arg-fallbackName="Darkprophet232"/>
Justice Frangipane said:
HWIN
IIn fact it is typically rare when mounting concurrences play towards a lie. But it does happen...


I'm only suggesting that it doesn't guarantee truth

Justice, it's very easy to point out when you're being obtuse, because we can read your old posts. You said it happens, HWIN asks you to provide an example, you complain that it's busy work. Do you really care about the truth, or only attention?
 
arg-fallbackName="Justice Frangipane"/>
@Darkprophet232

Being obtuse and refraining from unnecessary busy work are two different things. We could send each other searching for a variety of things endlessly. Do you agree that the majority of opinion, even the majority of conclusions doesn't mean the answer MUST be true?

I don't mind answering questions, but not when we actually all agree anyway. I think you and he probably already agree with this statement but are interested in "parenting" me into providing an example when in reality none is needed for this point.

To place the question to you and HWIN again a different way.

If a person has an opinion that doesn't have the majority of current research supporting it would that mean that it is definitely wrong?

I think this is a pretty stupid discussion at this point, but maybe I'm missing what it is you/re trying to prove. Frankly I think that a lot of this is "lets point out what he's doing wrong, but not actually address the points he's making"

If you agree with this statement we can be done with the whole evolution debate thing as you would then need to agree that darwin when he introduced an idea that was against the majority of research and conclusions of current science that he must be wrong. (okay, so I guess there is your example)

Okay maybe you are right =) maybe when someone brings up an idea that has the majority of science piled against it, it is wrong. haha didn't see this one playing out this way.

I'm joking now of course, but it does prove the point.

You can't base truth on majority of research or opinion. That's foolish and isn't science. Not saying that basing it off good science is the same thing. I am not saying that. I'm saying that some of the science IS done really well, but based off some assumptions based off other assumptions that the present is the key to the past.

Anyway, I hope that clarifies.
 
arg-fallbackName="Engelbert"/>
I do not actually believe Justice to be responding obtusely here. In fact I would concur with his response. He didn't provide an example, but the simple technical point he makes, I believe to be a valid one. There are instances when all the available evidence leads us to believe a falsehood or to conclude falsely, whether the falsehood is deceitful in its nature or not. It is question begging in the technical sense, to assume that we know things with absolute certainty, although we might have extremely good reasons to be very certain indeed. Some examples of conclusions made that turned out to be false, might be wrongful convictions, or worse still, wrongful executions. All the best evidence in a trial and for many years might lead us to falsely believe in the guilt of an individual, despite a lack of any solid evidence to the contrary. Such a conclusion might even be held with the conviction to order an execution. Here is a link to a Wikipedia page, listing cases of just such incidents.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wrongful_execution

To draw from the first case study here, with relevance to this particular issue, we might say that on 3rd May 1984, Weiqing An was a convicted rapist, deserving of punishment. One month later, serious and tragic new testimony is brought to light to question this perspective.

In light of such examples, I would not call Justice obtuse here. Perhaps he should have listed a case study, but I believe his point to be reasonably simple here and also valid. The problem he faces is the sheer weight and quality of the evidence in favour of the validity of ice core dating and the extent of concordant data from elsewhere, with regards to the topic then being discussed.

...(posted just after Justice)
 
arg-fallbackName="he_who_is_nobody"/>
Justice Frangipane said:
HWIN
I know your asking for an example but is that just busy work? Do you believe that if the majority of data confirms something that something MUST be true?

I'm only suggesting that it doesn't guarantee truth

HWIN would you agree that the majority of opinion, even the majority of conclusions doesn't mean the answer MUST be true.

No, this is not just busy work. I truly want you to give me an example of this (from science). Furthermore, I am lot saying that it must be true, I am saying it is the most likely answer. What do you offer in its place? Circular reasoning based off an old book? Your argument boils down to the earth must be young because you think the bible says that. What do you have to suggest the earth is young outside of the bible?

In addition, we are ducussing science, not court cases. I thought that would be obviously from the context of the discussion. Obviously, Justice Frangipane is not the only obtuse one.
 
arg-fallbackName="Engelbert"/>
It's a valid general point... Are there any examples in science? Perhaps there are. Incorrect conclusions based on the best, or only available evidence at the time are prevalent in the history of science. Canals on the face of Mars? The best optical evidence (however weak at the time) lead top scientists to believe that there were artificially made or at least natural canals on Mars. It's when new evidence comes to light that things can change. We should always be open to the possibility of new evidence. The alternative outlook, I believe might begin to resemble dogmatism.

It's a principle of humility Justice seemed to be alluding to, that I believe operates in science as in any other academic subject that deals with argument and evidence, even if it's only a technicality. This appears valid to me and not obtuse. I would say that evolution is one of the surest theories, if not the surest theory we have, yet technically, I would accept the possibility that it could be wrong, though I see any such possibility as extremely remote.
 
arg-fallbackName="Darkprophet232"/>
Justice Frangipane said:
We could send each other searching for a variety of things endlessly.
Justice Frangipane said:
But it does happen.
Justice Frangipane said:
I don't mind answering questions, but not when we actually all agree anyway.

But I don’t agree. You said that there have been times (does is present tense, meaning it happens now) that numerous fields in science, which have all pointed to a single conclusion, have been wrong. I don’t agree with you. I don’t know of a single time of that happening. You have two options here, you can either admit, that philosophically this is true but has not happened and were incorrect in making the assertion, or provide an example to back up your claim. You don’t get to say dumb shit then retreat from it when called out, at least not here.

I’ll even go a step further, and say that when nearly every physical science (physics, geology, genetics, astronomy, biology, paleontology, chemistry, anthropology, archaeology, and others) that we have and understand refutes the idea of a young earth, it is not possible for the earth to be young baring a massive violation of the natural world. And such a violation should leave numerous pieces of evidence, or not even breathed of in the same context as what we know.

Engelbert, thanks for not reading the context, and assuming we are talking about theories that involve only one field in science (in your example astronomy) or in a court of law that does not operate at all the same as science does. As always, you’re lazy reading and reasoning have added much to the conversation and we have all learned much from you.
 
arg-fallbackName="Engelbert"/>
I only seem to receive such regular sleights from yourself on this forum. The context was following a comment about ice cores. Not only did I mention this in the last line of my comment, but if you read the location of Justice's comment in question here, he seemed to be talking generally although it did follow a comment about ice cores. He clarified what he meant in further comments and it appeared he was speaking a little more generally. In such terms, I would agree with him. This is a general point that I believe is valid across academic disciplines and not specific to, but neither excluded from science. Of course the context is in a discussion about science, but I believe it is a perfectly valid point within this context too. I also offered an example from science in my response to HWIN... there are many incorrect conclusions drawn in the history of science from the best available data at the time. However, science is excellent at spotting these and correcting them too. To reject a simple point of humility, that appeared to be the point Justice was making seems wrong...
 
arg-fallbackName="Darkprophet232"/>
Engelbert said:
I only seem to receive such regular sleights from yourself on this forum.

I take it you don't know what regular means, as I haven't addressed you in nearly a year, the last time being here. But I'll leave our past at that, unless you wish to form a new topic to explore the issue you continued ignored that lead us to stop.

But back to why I'm talking to you today.
Engelbert said:
The context was in reference to ice cores.

This would be laughable if you weren't so easily shown to be wrong:

Justice Frangipane said:
I want to start by learning more about the radioactive dating. I would also like to dispel immediately the concept that "ICE CORE" dating is not a valid dating method. One of the big issues that many people face is being told that there are Many MANY different ways that something is true, that it must be true. This is not true. There can be many MANY ways in which we come to the same wrong conclusion. Yes! I agree, it isn't how it always happens. In fact it is typically rare when mounting concurrences play towards a lie. But it does happen.

Emphasis mine.

JF was referring to all forms of dating that refuted a young earth, ice cores being one of them. Again, please understand the context before spouting off like you have anything to add to the conversation.
 
arg-fallbackName="Engelbert"/>
http://www.leagueofreason.org.uk/viewtopic.php?f=7&t=11871&start=20

...the last time you addressed me was much more recently... It had a derisory feel to it as many of your other posts have had ...and your most recent two here...


It appears that ice cores were the last thing he mentioned before the comment was made... he then made a general point, which was the one referred to by HWIN. I stated that his point was general in my last reply as well as being about ice-cores, which would expand to more things than only ice cores. He made further comments to HWIN which seemed to indicate that he was talking in general terms or that his point was meant in a wider sense.
 
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