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nasher168 said:Maybe later I'll try and build something out of the bits of knowledge to see over the horizon a bit better.
The shoulders of giants making a cracking raft! :lol:
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nasher168 said:Maybe later I'll try and build something out of the bits of knowledge to see over the horizon a bit better.
CplFerro said:Thomas Doubting said:The Universe is "slave" to logical absolutes.. 1=1 and won't be 2 unless another 1 gets added to the 1, then 1+1=2 which also always stands.
But it is not "slave" to flawed logic and human intuition and common sense often mislabeled as logic.
Does that make any sense?
Now i have to add my own curiosity to the equation too.. Why are you asking such things? This is basic logic as you yourself stated and asking such things doesn't really make much sense to me either.
Do you have something specific on your mind.. some point you are trying to prove after establishing that logic is part of the universe?
Dear Thomas Doubting,
I'm afraid if Logic doesn't hold God will come back to life and break my arm for cheating on him.
Without foundations, what firm progress can be made towards the good and just society?
What you have said (sentence 1 & 2) make sense, but I have little confidence in it if absolutely no one believes it. I am not a Nietzschean superman who can believe in the power of his own logical brain to the exclusion of all others. I need to confirm my findings with others.
Cpl Ferro
Is there a reason why you chose to ignore my questions?CplFerro said:The world perishes for lack of foundations, and I perish along with it. I am sputtering and drowning amidst a churning grey sea littered with the flotsam of my former convictions. And I seize upon a few pieces to form a raft. One is called A=A, the other is called God Does Not Exist. I lash them together and haul myself up from the drink, momentarily safe.
Foundations, man, foundations.
If you say my question is meaningless, that's the same as answering it in the negative, is it not? If A=A cannot be violated on pain of meaninglessness, then A=A holds forever, everywhere.
CplFerro said:Dear Master_Ghost_Knight,
If I establish through logic that an infinite, personal God does not exist, how is that not establishing a truth about the nature of reality? "Reality cannot contain X".
On Logic, we use Logic to determine that Logic is sound, and we use it because the alternative is illogical (madness).
Cpl Ferro
valerytozer said:If god is real may "it" shut down this site (NOW), NOPE, SEE! god is not real, deal with it, Told you so... :lol: Anyways What about my video E=mC2?
valerytozer said:If god is real may "it" shut down this site (NOW), NOPE, SEE! god is not real, deal with it, Told you so... :lol:
It is inexcapable.Master_Ghost_Knight said:you had to probe what is out there to make the argument work
You shouldn't get your science from the movies, film directors know as much about science as my cat.valerytozer said:Anyways What about my video E=mC2?
valerytozer said:Ok , My wondering thoughts are then,,,
Theory of Everything and The Multiverse
If that is the case then how would you get to the other Multiverse, this is what i don't understand, IF, there are other universe's, in a Multiverse, then how can you enter one? Wouldn't you have to travel faster then the speed of light ?
I can not remember where i saw it, but the depition of this is... you zoom out of our universe and there are many universe's that is called "Multiverse." ( for those that don't know).
hackenslash said:CplFerro said:Without foundations, what firm progress can be made towards the good and just society?
What has any of that to do with logic?
What you have said (sentence 1 & 2) make sense, but I have little confidence in it if absolutely no one believes it.
Why? What people believe is of zero consequence in this regard. Logical absolutes are independent of belief.
Thomas Doubting said:With that being said.. uhm.. may i ask you.. what does that have to do with the expanding universe and logical absolutes? :lol:
Gunboat Diplomat said:Is there a reason why you chose to ignore my questions?CplFerro said:The world perishes for lack of foundations, and I perish along with it. I am sputtering and drowning amidst a churning grey sea littered with the flotsam of my former convictions. And I seize upon a few pieces to form a raft. One is called A=A, the other is called God Does Not Exist. I lash them together and haul myself up from the drink, momentarily safe.
Foundations, man, foundations.
If you say my question is meaningless, that's the same as answering it in the negative, is it not? If A=A cannot be violated on pain of meaninglessness, then A=A holds forever, everywhere.
Let me show you how futile your dodging has been and say this: I agree with you that "the universe is necessarily logical."
Now what do you say? What is your point?
Master_Ghost_Knight said:I would like you to notice the fact that you had to specifie "infinite" and "personal" for the argument to make sense, this are ideas someone constructed about God and you just have knocked it down those ideas of God to your satifaction. Experience would tell you that those ideas are not likely to have real counter parts, and despite your contentions there is noting illogical about a real infinite personal God, the gap between pure logic and reality can never be bridged, the best you could do is to say that such a version of God would requier a completly diffrent version of reality than the version we actually see. But then again you had to probe what is out there to make the argument work.
CplFerro said:hackenslash said:Why? What people believe is of zero consequence in this regard. Logical absolutes are independent of belief.
Dear hackenslash,
If absolutely no one besides myself held the conviction that "Logical absolutes are independent of belief," I would fear for my sanity. I can only hold my breath and be submersed in the liquid of madness for so long, before I too would choose to inhale deeply of it.
Without accepting that A=A, we are at a deep disadvantage in rooting out illogicalities in our attempts at progress.
Cpl Ferro
CplFerro said:Without a grasp of logical absolutes, there is no 100% firm foundation for atheism (a 7 on the Dawkins scale), only the empirically based 6.99999999.
CplFerro said:Dear Master_Ghost_Knight,
If Logic is right, then you (boldface) are wrong. There is no conceivable universe in which the infinite can simultaneously be the personal.
A non-infinite God is not God. A non-personal God is not God. A finite, impersonal entity is not God. Anyone who tries to sell you otherwise has constructed an entity and chosen to call it "God" which has no relation to that which the religions of the world have to sell you.
To say I had to "probe what is out there to make the argument work" applies also to Decartes, who had to first use his senses to encounter a world that he then chose to doubt.
Cpl Ferro
Thomas Doubting said:However i still i don't get your point about logic and the universe..
Can you go few steps back and explain us where exactly you see a problem?
CplFerro said:Dear Master_Ghost_Knight,
In order to prove a personal, infinite God does not exist, I invoke definitions of "personal" and "infinite". If this is somehow a violation of your rules I do not know, but there is no way to logic without invoking definitions. That does not make the logic somehow invalid or only equally valid to empirical observations.
"Infinite" means "without limits" or non-finite or unbounded. A personality indicates a limit. If one has a particular personality, one does not have its opposite, for example. So, an entity with a personality cannot be infinite, by definition. Nor can an infinite being have a personality. No observation will overturn this.
Cpl Ferro
I have granted you that from the start, but what I am contesting is that nothing in reality can violate the laws of logic simply because they do not apply altogheter to state something about the nature of reality while in isolation, and not because reality has to be consistent.CplFerro said:I am attempting to win consensus that the universe cannot violate A=A
Master_Ghost_Knight said:You haven't invoked any good definition of inifinite or personal, what does those properties mean exactly?
"Infinite" does not mean "without limits", in what aspect is it unbounded or noon-finite? How does a personality contradicts the state of being this yet undefined state of infinite?
And I would contest that if one has a particular personality that it can not have it's oposite, ever heard of split personality? Despite your face value evaluation of a personality state that acording to you is not supoused to be real, multiple personality disorder is still a real afliction. Now that you are faced with this wall, let me reiterate what I have already mention, it is not that the world is ilogical, you just happened to have the wrong idea of what is this thing we call personality.
I hCplFerro said:I am attempting to win consensus that the universe cannot violate A=A
ave granted you that from the start, but what I am contesting is that nothing in reality can violate the laws of logic simply because they do not apply altogheter to state something about the nature of reality and not because reality has to be consistent.