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Evolutionist and Proud: The semantics

Squawk

New Member
arg-fallbackName="Squawk"/>
Evolutionist: A simple word, but one likely to enrage or at least provoke in certain situations. For a while I disliked the term myself, but after much thought I have come to accept that there is a need for such a term and that the term evolutionist is appropriate.

I am fully aware that this position will receive harsh criticism, not least because I had an extended debate on the subject in #lor, the live chat, and so here I present my defense.

A couple of weeks ago I started writing an article on micro and macro evolution, seeking a simple but accurate explanation of the two and how they are related. As part of the article I had to discuss differing views and how they applied to evolutionary theory and I came across a stumbling block. I found a need to refer to those who accept evolutionary theory. For a one off that line would be simple, "those that accept evolutionary theory". However for repeated use it makes sense to have a word, a single word or term which applies, and here I was brought up short. I cannot do better than evolutionist.

To be clear, let me define terms

Evolutionist: A person who accepts neo-darwinian evolution as the explanation for the diversity of life on earth.

My defense of the term is presented below and I invite criticism.

Is such a term required?

I contend that such a term is required for numerous reasons. For a start I need it, but I will put that aside. Excusing the hyperbola, the world can be divided into those that accept evolutionary theory and those that don't. This on it's own would not necessitate a term, there are for example people who think the world is flat, but we don't have a term in common use for those who think the earth is round (oblate spheroid). In the case of evolution though, what we see is constant debate between those who accept it and those who don't. Key to note, this debate is not one held in scientific circles, but it is a debate. I would hazard a guess that every single person who reads this article has, at some point in the last 2 months, had cause to refer to people who accept evolutionary theory and has not had at their disposal a word to use.

A quick tangent, it is of no consequence what the person who rejects evolutionary theory is attempting to replace it with or holds as a belief. It does not matter if they are creationist. It is a false dichotomy to suggest that the opposite of acceptance of evolutionary theory is creationism. The opposite of acceptance is rejection, and it so happens that a large proportion of people do reject it, and further, that discussions with those people are common.

On this basis I deem that there is such a need for a term. Those supporting evolutionary theory are the ones making the positive claim, that evolution has occurred and is the explanation for the diversity of life. I simply want to name those in that position for ease of reference as per my definition above, and the best I can do is evolutionist.

Are there alternative names?

There might be, but as yet I am yet to be shown them. Whenever I have broached this topic I find I am bombarded with non-sequiters or the illogical. Let us ask a simple question. What is the goal of this word? The goal is simple, the word must encompass the acceptance of evolutionary theory and ideally nothing else. If it does encompass anything else then it is too loose a definition.

I present here a list of terms that have been suggested and I subsequently explain my reasons for rejecting each.


Scientist:
This one is trivial to reject, but I will do so on a number of counts.

First, it is entirely possible to be a scientist without having the first notion of what evolutionary theory entails. There are undoubtedly leading scientists in certain fields who do not have the first inkling about evolutionary theory. The word scientist is then not strict enough to apply.

Second, many people with no scientific credentials accept evolutionary theory, people who could not rightly be named scientists.

Third, there are many people who would be correctly labelled scientists who reject evolutionary theory. One must appeal to the no true scotsman fallacy if one is to argue the point.


Rationalist:
Again I feel this is trivial to reject in numerous ways. What do we deem rational? Is belief in a deity rational? I would argue not, so does belief in a deity make someone irrational? If so you must catagorise a huge number of evolutionary biologists as irrational. Ken Miller springs immediately to mind as a perfect candidate to demonstrate the point. A perfectly rational person with an irrational belief. If you wish to say that a word to describe a person who accepts evolutionary theory is rational then you must accept that every other belief that person holds is also rational. This would include any superstitions they may hold. Again, the term is far too loose in some contexts, far too restrictive in others.

I would of course contend that acceptance of evolutionary theory is rational, but that does not make everyone who accepts evolutionary theory rational. Much like a rose is a flower, therefore all flowers are roses. The logic does not hold, therefore this definition breaks.

The simplest criticism is to note that the definition of evolutionist I proposed has nothing at all to say about the reasons for accepting evolutionary theory, it is simply acknowledgement that someone does. Many people accept evolutionary theory without the faintest notion of much of what it has to say.

Biologist/Evolutionary Biologist:

Both fail for the same reasons as scientists, it is perfectly possible to accept evolutionary theory without being either of the above.

I invite anyone to propose alternatives to be either accepted or attacked. Please note that I do not particularly like the term evolutionist, for reasons that I will come to shortly, but that I do find I have need of it.

Further proposed reasons for rejection are:

Creationists will use it negatively or to imply religious belief:
I agree entirely, they might, and this is the reason I don't like the term. Indeed they will and actually already do use this term negatively. My rebuttal to this is simple, as long as the definition of the word is clear it does not matter how they use it, it is simple to point out that they are arguing against a straw man version. Creationists have a long history of abusing well defined terms. Atheism, for example, is often bastardised in any debate with theists, quite frequently suggested to make some positive claim or to be a religion and to require faith. Do we subsequently cease referring to atheism? Of course we don't, because the word atheism is extremely useful in context, it is a way of identifying a given set of beliefs that a person either holds or does not.

In the same way I propose evolutionist. It is simply a recognition that a person accepts evolutionary theory. It does not go into the details of why they do so and it doesn't care. It simply refers to the acceptance. A creationist might use it in a derogatory way. They may bastardise it's meaning, erect straw men of it, use it to create a false dichotomy or equality. None of that matters to the function and definition of the word and its use in discourse.



To summarise, I propose that use of the term evolutionist can be attacked on two fronts. You can debate whether or not a word is required to refer to "those who accept evolutionary theory". I find that I have a need of that term, hence my argument in its favour. Alternatively, you can come up with an alternative term that retains the explanatory power of that word.

Let the war commence.
 
arg-fallbackName="Ozymandyus"/>
I'm not a fan simply because it is pretty simple to merely say 'I believe in evolution' or 'a person that believes in evolution'. You would have to define what you meant by an evolutionist anyway, and simply saying I believe in evolution probably saves you words in the long run. In a paper, you can feel free to use it as a shorthand but in conversation it would not save you any breath.

I would never label myself such for one simple reason: Evolution is something I believe in, but not something that defines who I am. Titles that end in IST are generally reserved for something a little broader like a profession or an overarching belief system. But it is such a small part of my overall world outlook that using it in almost any situation I can think of would be awkward, unsatisfying and convey almost no knowledge of myself to the listener.

But I certainly have no problem with other people using it - feel free.
 
arg-fallbackName="Squawk"/>
Ozymandyus said:
I'm not a fan simply because it is pretty simple to merely say 'I believe in evolution' or 'a person that believes in evolution'. You would have to define what you meant by an evolutionist anyway, and simply saying I believe in evolution probably saves you words in the long run. In a paper, you can feel free to use it as a shorthand but in conversation it would not save you any breath.
Fair point, as I say the need for the word is the only argument that I see as being valid, personally I think it is.
Ozymandyus said:
But it is such a small part of my overall world outlook that using it in almost any situation I can think of would be awkward, unsatisfying and convey almost no knowledge of myself to the listener.

That's pretty much my point, that is the only information that it can impart, which is why I like the term.
 
arg-fallbackName="Gnug215"/>
Theory-of-Evolution-accepter.

(Or the more archaic form: acceptor! - Looks cooler, and rhymes with Skeletor, so it's gotta be good!)
 
arg-fallbackName="Aught3"/>
Darwinist? Or does that just apply to the theory of evolution rather than the fact?

Tbh, I don't think we need a special word for someone who accepts facts about reality. Biologist does the job for me.
 
arg-fallbackName="xman"/>
Of course you are right, Squawk. The trouble is twofold for me though. 'Evolutionist' as a word is like 'religionist' a clumsy one. We use specific terms for Christians, Muslims and the like, so why not for Evolutionary Biologists, etc. It also implies that there is a level of 'belief' equated to the religious mindset which is misleading to those of lesser argumentation. This is a thorn when attempting to rationalise. So, though you are perfectly correct and there are times to use the term which shouldn't be too confusing, I would caution against its regular use.
 
arg-fallbackName="SchrodingersFinch"/>
I don't mind if creationists call me a 'darwinist' or 'evolutionist', after all Darwin was a brilliant man and evolution is a magnificent phenomenan of nature. The only problem is that creationists try to make them sound negative with their propaganda. We should do the opposite: make 'evolutionist' synonymous with rationality and an interest in science and the natural world.

I wouldn't mind being called a 'feynmanist' either. In fact, I would quite like it.
 
arg-fallbackName="Squawk"/>
SchrodingersFinch said:
I don't mind if creationists call me a 'darwinist' or 'evolutionist', after all Darwin was a brilliant man and evolution is a magnificent phenomenan of nature. The only problem is that creationists try to make them sound negative with their propaganda. We should do the opposite: make 'evolutionist' synonymous with rationality and an interest in science and the natural world.

Works for me. I personally think we allow the creationist/theist lobby to influence thinking. Try mentioning belief to anyone active in the debate on creationism and they run a mile. "I don't believe, I accept"

I think creationist ideas are allowed to propogate without most realising, which is part of the reason for my formuation of the argument in favour of evolutionist. I plan a further post along the same lines for belief, faith, knowledge and acceptance so please don't lets derail this thread along those lines here.

Stick with evolutionist here, damn the creationists, full speed ahead. Or summat.

Darwinist is a funny one. Normally I wouldn't agree with the use of a persons name (people generally use einsteinism as an example), but I think that analagy fails. It is common parlance to refer to Darwinian evolution simply to differentiate it from other kinds of evolution, IMO referring to onself as a darwinist could be argued for along the same lines that I am arguing for evolutionist. I'd prefer to stick with evolutionist.
 
arg-fallbackName="SchrodingersFinch"/>
Squawk said:
Darwinist is a funny one. Normally I wouldn't agree with the use of a persons name (people generally use einsteinism as an example), but I think that analagy fails. It is common parlance to refer to Darwinian evolution simply to differentiate it from other kinds of evolution, IMO referring to onself as a darwinist could be argued for along the same lines that I am arguing for evolutionist. I'd prefer to stick with evolutionist.
I agree that 'evolutionist' is much better, for the simple reason that Darwin wasn't right about everything and I don't necessarily agree with his political views, for example.
 
arg-fallbackName="Deleted member 1694"/>
Squawk said:
Evolutionist: A simple word, but one likely to enrage or at least provoke in certain situations. For a while I disliked the term myself, but after much thought I have come to accept that there is a need for such a term and that the term evolutionist is appropriate.

...

Evolutionist: A person who accepts neo-darwinian evolution as the explanation for the diversity of life on earth.

First of -- I should say in my defense, that I'm not a person to stick a label on myself. Whenever I manage to do that, I fight vigorously to get it of me. But let me put my 2 cents in this, and say, why is it a bad idea to label yourself as "evolutionist":

1) Creationists: This will give them yet another opportunity to spout out yet another crap about people, that go and label themselves as "evolutionists", saying "All those evolutionists are a part of <insert a conspiracy theory of choice here>", which is nothing new, but it will hint, that the people who accept evolutionary theory are in minority, which will contribute to nothing, but will do nothing but to contribute to heighten the general distrust in science. Isn't enough, that the IDiots are trying to force creationism in school due to evolution being "just a theory"? Yes, words like this can do far more damage than one could imagine :]

2) Common usage: Since the vast majority of population (not just scientist) accept evolution, what's the point of this label, anyway? And what's wrong with just saying "I accept evolutionary theory"? Isn't that like asking the people, who accept geoidic earth to be called geotists? Or those, who accept heliocentric solar system "heliocentrists"? Or the people who accept gravity are called "gravitationists"?

I've seen an entry on "evolutionist" as a legit word in the dictionary. I don't argue with the dictionary, it's just -- The word like that has no real point anymore.

But no -- I'll simply pass on attaching yet another pointless label on me to make the opposition grinning wildy.

I simply accept the theory of evolution.
 
arg-fallbackName="TheFearmonger"/>
Not arguing for or against, just an observation; isn't it kinda sad we have to make a label that says, "yes, we accept reality" simply because others don't wanna?
 
arg-fallbackName="Deleted member 1694"/>
TheFearmonger said:
Not arguing for or against, just an observation; isn't it kinda sad we have to make a label that says, "yes, we accept reality" simply because others don't wanna?
Yep. But life sucks that way.
 
arg-fallbackName="Gnug215"/>
TheFearmonger said:
Not arguing for or against, just an observation; isn't it kinda sad we have to make a label that says, "yes, we accept reality" simply because others don't wanna?


It is sad, yes.

But I can see how it is needed in the context of Squawk's article.

Even if you were writing about people who believe in a flat Earth, or ghosts, you'd need some term to distinguish the two, and writing "people who don't believe in ghosts" constantly would quickly become annoying.
 
arg-fallbackName="Deleted member 1694"/>
Gnug215 said:
TheFearmonger said:
Not arguing for or against, just an observation; isn't it kinda sad we have to make a label that says, "yes, we accept reality" simply because others don't wanna?


It is sad, yes.

But I can see how it is needed in the context of Squawk's article.

Even if you were writing about people who believe in a flat Earth, or ghosts, you'd need some term to distinguish the two, and writing "people who don't believe in ghosts" constantly would quickly become annoying.
So... Should the people who don't believe in ghosts just label themselves as "aghostsits"?
 
arg-fallbackName="Gnug215"/>
wolfpaws said:


It is sad, yes.

But I can see how it is needed in the context of Squawk's article.

Even if you were writing about people who believe in a flat Earth, or ghosts, you'd need some term to distinguish the two, and writing "people who don't believe in ghosts" constantly would quickly become annoying.
So... Should the people who don't believe in ghosts just label themselves as "aghostsits"?[/quote]

Heh, no, but again, in the context of, for example, having to write an entire article or book about people who believe in ghosts as opposed to people who don't believe in ghosts, it would be prudent to come up with a convenient and simple term.

"Evolutionist" is indeed such a term, and it's even in the dictionary. Has the term been abused and misused by creationists in their spin war? Yes. Does it make the term inherently wrong? No.

Is the term ambiguous? Yes, but many terms are. We know their "right" meaning due to the context. It's a bit like if I say I'm an "agnostic", then most people will know that I am referring to it in the sense of religion/theism, not just knowing/not-knowing.

Should we correct theists when they misuse it? Of course, just as with anything they say that's false - which is a lot. I mean, they even get terms like "atheist" wrong on a regular basis.
 
arg-fallbackName="Dragan Glas"/>
Greetings,

As I've mentioned elsewhere, I don't have a issue with the term "Evolutionist".

The fact that another person or group may attempt to use it pejoratively is irrelevant.

After all, "Creationists" don't mind being called such - even if there are those who try to make it pejorative.

If someone calls you a "Evolutionist!!" pejoratively, you can simply say, "Yes, I accept the scientific theory of Evolution, which is but one among many within Science. You're attempt to try to turn it into a insult has no more worth than someone attempting to insult you by labelling you as a 'Creationist'".

Having cleared that up, and made a pointed comment on their lack of compassion/respect ("Love thy neighbour as thyself"), you can then move on.

If they use "Darwinist!!" in a similar vein, having answered in a similar manner to the above, you can then use that as a launchpad to explain the differences between the modern understanding of evolutionary theory as against Darwin's original one.

[As an aside, I find it interesting that the modern Theist versus Atheist debate mirrors a similar one in ancient Greek philosophy. At that time, Epicureans were the "atheists" of their day (they were often barred from/not invited to debates, and sometimes cities, due to their perceived "impiety") - despite accepting gods, they believed that those had no part to play in the world, which would make them Deists in modern parlance, rather than "atheists" as we'd think of the term.]

Kindest regards,

James
 
arg-fallbackName="ImprobableJoe"/>
I don't 100% agree, but I understand. I guess it comes down to weighing the simplicity of the term against the possible harm it does after it is twisted by the creationists to mean a religious belief in evolution. I've always objected to words like "Darwinist" and "evolutionist" because they seem to allow creationists to treat acceptance of reality as just another -ism that is equal to whatever stupidity they hold unreasoned faith in.

Then again, "professional" creationists are lying cretins by definition. So, they're going to twist things no matter what words we use, so why should we spend a bunch of time quibbling over semantics? I'm thinking with that in mind, the arguments in this thread gain weight. I might be forced to change my mind here....

Hey, that's pretty cool! :D
 
arg-fallbackName="Doc."/>
Aught3 said:
OMG, the people on this forum are beginning to act strange!

is it about this? :lol: http://forums.leagueofreason.org.uk/viewtopic.php?f=16&t=4687
 
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