Electric Cars

Led Zeppelin

Active Member
One can fill up a gas powered car with enough fuel to last a week in about 5 minutes or less. The area required to keep a city full of battery powered car depends on the amount of time it takes to charge the battery. It takes a considerable longer amount of time to charge a cars battery than it does to fill a tank with gasoline. There is not enough space in the city I live in to provide charging stations for all of us who want to own cars. Plus no one is talking about the added strain on the electrical grid.
 

*SD*

Administrator
Staff member
I tried one once, back in 2014 ish. Nissan Leaf. Went like a fucking rocket in all fairness. Just no use to me in my line of work or location, so I will stick with my diesel sucking 4x4 for the time being.
 

ldmitruk

Active Member
Keep in mind it took about hundred years for us to reach the level of infrastructure support we currently have for fossil fuelled vehicles. It's going to take a while to get infrastructure in place for electric vehicles as well. But, I think it won't take as long.
 

*SD*

Administrator
Staff member
Have you tried looking into biodiesel?

Little bit, in that I've seen a few vidoes on it and such. Doesn't seem very practical to make at home aside from small experimental amounts. There's a few different 'diesels' - used veg oil from restaurants and stuff, a friend of mine used to run his Discovery on that, but from what I could tell, by the time you piss about with cleaning it up and thinning it etc you're not really gaining anything.
 

ldmitruk

Active Member
Little bit, in that I've seen a few vidoes on it and such. Doesn't seem very practical to make at home aside from small experimental amounts. There's a few different 'diesels' - used veg oil from restaurants and stuff, a friend of mine used to run his Discovery on that, but from what I could tell, by the time you piss about with cleaning it up and thinning it etc you're not really gaining anything.
But your exhaust smells like fries/chips.

I seem to recall that Diesel had intended his engine be able to run on biofuels, but I'm not 100% sure of that. Here in Canada diesel never really took off like it did in Europe, which I think is unfortunate. Most of the diesel powered vehicles over here are mainly semi's and and pickup trucks. The pickup truck owners seem to like rolling coal as they pass cyclists.
 

*SD*

Administrator
Staff member
But your exhaust smells like fries/chips.

It truly does, you can tell if you're behind a vehicle running on recycled veg oil by the whiff alone.
Here in Canada diesel never really took off like it did in Europe

I don't know much about Canada, but from what you're saying it seems similar to the US in this regard. The US runs on petrol (gasoline) whereas the UK runs on diesel. I don't mean literally everything of course, but at one time most of the cars on UK roads were diesel because the gov't incentivised it and recommended everyone rush out immediately to buy a diesel vehicle. Which they did. This advice would, of course, be reversed years later but I'd guess a good half of vehicles still sold are diesel. There's probably stats on that somewhere but it doesn't matter, it'll still be a big chunk even if my 50% guess is a bit off.
 

Sparhafoc

Well-Known Member
Here's the data...


The proportion of diesel cars on Britain’s roads has fallen for the past three years. From 39.6% in 2017, it fell to 39.3 per cent in 2018, 38.5 per cent in 2019 and 37.6 per cent in 2020.

261,772 new diesel cars were sold in 2020, down 55 per cent on the 581,774 sold in 2019

In 2020, more new 'alternative fuel' cars were registered than new diesel cars.
 

*SD*

Administrator
Staff member
Yeah, so my 50% guess is, as I already stated it might be, a bit off. Still a bloody good chunk of cars on UK roads are diesel, which is all I was contending. Well, not even contending really, just mentioning.
 

Sparhafoc

Well-Known Member
Oh it's not like I knew either way... I don't drive, and haven't been to the UK for years! Just you said there's stats, so I grabbed 'em for ya.

Interesting about the alternative fuel cars, though.
 

BoganUSAFFLClerk

Active Member
Depending on the area in which you live you are going to be using electricity generated from coal or other non renewable resources even if you do switch.

Transferring chemical energy then stepping up and then stepping down voltage and then sending it along power lines is far less efficient than simply burning the chemical energy and transferring it into mechanical energy.

Electric cars are vastly more expensive than gas or diesel.

If you want to be able to charge them at your home you need to pay an electrician to install the proper equipment in your home.

You are producing far more hazardous material waste in the form of old car batteries as electric car batteries are far larger over time.

Its got a long way to go at best.
 

Sparhafoc

Well-Known Member
Depending on the area in which you live you are going to be using electricity generated from coal or other non renewable resources even if you do switch.

Energy generated in coal power plants is vastly more efficient in terms of emissions than individual combustion engines.


Transferring chemical energy then stepping up and then stepping down voltage and then sending it along power lines is far less efficient than simply burning the chemical energy and transferring it into mechanical energy.

Citation, please.


Electric cars are vastly more expensive than gas or diesel.

How long is a piece of string? The cost range of a petrol or diesel car ranges by considerable sums of money. A comparison of like-by-like would be necessary to determine which is more expensive.


If you want to be able to charge them at your home you need to pay an electrician to install the proper equipment in your home.

If you want the convenience of charging at home, then yes, you have to pay for it. Tends to be how all the things work.


You are producing far more hazardous material waste in the form of old car batteries as electric car batteries are far larger over time.

Citation, please.


Its got a long way to go at best.

It's already happening, as per the citation already presented in this thread.

In 2020, more new 'alternative fuel' cars were registered than new diesel cars.
 

BoganUSAFFLClerk

Active Member
Energy generated in coal power plants is vastly more efficient in terms of emissions than individual combustion engines.
You still have to TRANSMIT that power to power substations and into homes in order to be home charged or send them to fuel stations. The continual stepping up and down in terms of electrical power is inefficient and coal burns dirtier compared to gasoline.
Citation, please.
Tesla battery = 1,200 lb
Gas Engine Battery = 25-50 lb

Both of those are FINITE meaning you have to replace them.

1200lb is greater than 25-50lb correct? Are batteries hazardous materials? Yes.

How long is a piece of string? The cost range of a petrol or diesel car ranges by considerable sums of money. A comparison of like-by-like would be necessary to determine which is more expensive.
Which is why people buy overwhelmingly more gas engine vehicles compared to electric or diesel.
If you want the convenience of charging at home, then yes, you have to pay for it. Tends to be how all the things work.
Pumps are pretty hectic at fuel stations. Traffic congestion is commonplace.
Citation, please.
Ranges are around 2-16% depending on conditions and which sources you look up. They vary quite a bit. Hot days effect the efficiency of lines. Poorly maintained power grid contributes to loss. Power generation to transmission method also effects efficiency.
It's already happening, as per the citation already presented in this thread.
No you argued more diesel cars compared to more alternative cars compared to conventional cars.
 

Sparhafoc

Well-Known Member
You still have to TRANSMIT that power to power substations and into homes in order to be home charged or send them to fuel stations. The continual stepping up and down in terms of electrical power is inefficient and coal burns dirtier compared to gasoline.

Compared to burning the same volume of gasoline, perhaps... but then as I already pointed out, that's not the case as the energy generated by power plants is vastly - disproportionately more efficient - than millions of independent combustion engines burning petroleum.

And while coal generation of energy is obviously dirty, I want to see evidence that on a watt basis, the burning of coal in a power plant produces more emissions and is less efficient than any vehicle combustion engine. Just economies of scale make this a bewildering claim.

And of course, this is why I like to ground my positions on evidence, because just as we need to take into account stepping generated power, we'd also need to take into account delivering all that combustible liquid around, distributing it to local outlets, maintaining it safely etc. If we're trying to make an evidence-based comparison, then we can't just pick the bits we want.

Absent all those specifics, we can still recognize that if electrical powered cars became widespread, then people would have that energy on demand at their own home, the maintenance of the systems would cost, but logistics costs would drop to near nothing.


Tesla battery = 1,200 lb
Gas Engine Battery = 25-50 lb

Both of those are FINITE meaning you have to replace them.

1200lb is greater than 25-50lb correct? Are batteries hazardous materials? Yes.

The original contention was:

You are producing far more hazardous material waste in the form of old car batteries as electric car batteries are far larger over time.

Far more hazardous waste. The contention being that ownership of an electric car means you'd be producing 'far more hazardous waste' than you would by owning a petroleum car - that's what I asked for a citation for. One example may be batteries and it is arguably the case, but there are numerous other waste products which would be necessary in determining which produces far more hazardous material waste between the two, which is why I asked for and would still like a citation, please.


Which is why people buy overwhelmingly more gas engine vehicles compared to electric or diesel.

An unjustified assumption.

Many factors play a part here.

For one example, we've inherited a historical and cultural infrastructure which has made petroleum based cars have a competitive advantage in the market place. Plenty of petrol stations, plenty of large-scale manufacturers making products they've spent decades refining, plenty of established cultural references and brands permeating meat-space.

Additionally, as has already been cited in this thread - this pattern of consumption is changing quickly.

In 2020, more new 'alternative fuel' cars were registered than new diesel cars.

That's how the world works: shit changes.

So, when we discover that our actions are causing serious damage to the systems on which our existence is predicated, innovation kicks in and we figure our way out of it - that's the best of humanity. It works great for consumers too as innovative competition invariably produces unexpected goods and services which in turn become essential... like, the internet.

I see no reason why anyone would ever be against finding cleaner ways to produce energy, particularly if the potential energy produced could climb dramatically higher with even less harm to our living systems.


Pumps are pretty hectic at fuel stations. Traffic congestion is commonplace.

That's not a sentence I can even hope to engage with as it assumes that this must be taken as true regardless of it obviously being false given that the world is a big, complicated place with many different situations.

But even setting that aside, this is just as true of petroleum/diesel car owners as of electric car owners, except the latter has the notional potential to spend money to obviate this scenario. The petroleum/diesel car owner not so much as there tends to be laws (and space issues) about storing quantities of flammable liquids inside dense residential areas.


Ranges are around 2-16% depending on conditions and which sources you look up. They vary quite a bit. Hot days effect the efficiency of lines. Poorly maintained power grid contributes to loss. Power generation to transmission method also effects efficiency.

That's not a citation.



No you argued more diesel cars compared to more alternative cars compared to conventional cars.

...?

Regardless of what discoursive reason I used that citation for before... that citation still remains in this thread showing that the proportion of alternative fuel vehicles being bought is increasingly dramatically year on year.

The link is still there for you to examine it yourself.
 
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*SD*

Administrator
Staff member
Oh, I was not suggesting making it yourself. Instead, I wondered if you had looked and seen if there is a place that sells it where you live.

Sorry HWIN, I did see this post but I forgot to reply to it. I've never seen it for sale anywhere I've been in the UK to be honest. I'm sure there are places that sell it, but definitely not in my area.
 

Dragan Glas

Well-Known Member
Greetings,

When I lived in the UK (in Bucks over a decade ago) there were biodiesel outlets. [1][2]

Kindest regards,

James
 
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