Egyptian Leadership

[MRaverz]

What has the current Egyptian leader done wrong? Sure, his rise to power has not been totally democratic, but has he actually done anything 'wrong'? I've seen no evidence of genocides etc. even though I've expected it.

My reason for asking is because I'm not convinced that Mubarak stepping down would be a good thing, in fact if such a thing were to happen the Muslim Brotherhood would simply step into the power vacuum and potentially turn the country into an Islamic State. Would that really be a better alternative?

 

[ArthurWilborn]

Oh, you know, the usual dictator crap. Jailing anyone who speaks against the regime, massive government corruption, sharp limits on private institutions. Also, all workers who try to unionize are told they're now part of the government-run national union, which means exactly jack except a little extra extortion.

http://www.carnegieendowment.org/events/?fa=eventDetail&id=2816

As dictators go, not so bad really.

 

[MRaverz]

Oh, you know, the usual dictator crap. Jailing anyone who speaks against the regime, massive government corruption, sharp limits on private institutions. Also, all workers who try to unionize are told they're now part of the government-run national union, which means exactly jack except a little extra extortion.

http://www.carnegieendowment.org/events/?fa=eventDetail&id=2816

As dictators go, not so bad really.

Surely this is a better alternative to a Muslim Brotherhood run state?

Additionally, in a perfect state (which I accept Egypt is not, this is merely a thought experiment) surely it would be right to jail someone who tried to undermine that state?

 

[Anachronous Rex]

I would say that surely Louis XVI was better than Napoleon, but I don't begrudge the French Revolution for this.

This is a democratic uprising, the problem with democracy is that the people sometimes poor choices (trust me, I'm American.) Still, that's their mistake to make.

 

[ArthurWilborn]

Oh, you know, the usual dictator crap. Jailing anyone who speaks against the regime, massive government corruption, sharp limits on private institutions. Also, all workers who try to unionize are told they're now part of the government-run national union, which means exactly jack except a little extra extortion.

http://www.carnegieendowment.org/events/?fa=eventDetail&id=2816

As dictators go, not so bad really.

Surely this is a better alternative to a Muslim Brotherhood run state?

Additionally, in a perfect state (which I accept Egypt is not, this is merely a thought experiment) surely it would be right to jail someone who tried to undermine that state?

If it did this the state would not be perfect.

 

[MRaverz]

I would say that surely Louis XVI was better than Napoleon, but I don't begrudge the French Revolution for this.

This is a democratic uprising, the problem with democracy is that the people sometimes poor choices (trust me, I'm American.) Still, that's their mistake to make.

So the right to choose your leaders is more important that healthcare, literacy rates, crime rates etc?

I think people tend to give too much credit to democracy, sure it's a nice idea - but in reality, you end up with the voice of the politically aware, drowned out by the politically uneducated. Plus, if the state were "perfect", you'd run the risk of people voting against it. Essentially it simply leads to cases of tyranny or stupidity by majority.

I think it's all well and good to declare that it 'their mistake to make', but only in cases where it doesn't really matter. Surely, it's a pretty important decision who rules the country?

 

[Andiferous]

I've been trying to stay out of this one a bit. I think experience has taught us that the usurpers are not neccessarily better than the existing government, and making judgements and taking sides in foreign policy where we're not invited and in fuzzy cases does nothing more than make it more difficult to do so in the future. I'm on the fence and I rather like it here.

 

[MRaverz]

I've been trying to stay out of this one a bit. I think experience has taught us that the usurpers are not neccessarily better than the existing government, and making judgements and taking sides in foreign policy where we're not invited and in fuzzy cases does nothing more than make it more difficult to do so in the future. I'm on the fence and I rather like it here.

I'm on the fence for other reasons, most prominently my ignorance of the situation in full.
However, I disagree that you cannot 'take a side' as it were. It's perfectly fine to hold an informed opinion. Since when did you need to be invited to hold an opinion?

 

[Anachronous Rex]

I would say that surely Louis XVI was better than Napoleon, but I don't begrudge the French Revolution for this.

This is a democratic uprising, the problem with democracy is that the people sometimes poor choices (trust me, I'm American.) Still, that's their mistake to make.

So the right to choose your leaders is more important that healthcare, literacy rates, crime rates etc?

I would say rather that free and fair elections, like freedom of speech and of the press, are one of those things without which liberty cannot be said to exist. Call it stereotypical of my nation, but I for one agree with Patrick Henry - without liberty we have nothing.

I think people tend to give too much credit to democracy, sure it's a nice idea - but in reality, you end up with the voice of the politically aware, drowned out by the politically uneducated. Plus, if the state were "perfect", you'd run the risk of people voting against it. Essentially it simply leads to cases of tyranny or stupidity by majority.

I think it's all well and good to declare that it 'their mistake to make', but only in cases where it doesn't really matter. Surely, it's a pretty important decision who rules the country?

A fair point, but I'm sorry, I simply cannot compromise. Self-determination is a basic right of all peoples, besides I am unconvinced that a foreign-backed dictator (even were he benevolent, and progressive) would do anything other than validate the claims of our enemies. They would say that our talk of 'spreading democracy' is mere rhetoric, hypocritical and self-interested; and they would be right.

We made this mistake in Iran, and in Iraq, and in Vietnam, and elsewhere, and every time the people have seen through it. It has never worked for us.

 

[Andiferous]

Agreed. It could be said there is a lesson in the acheivement of democracy necessary for best understanding and appreciating it. You can't give philosophy to people and think yourself right and generous; they must want and understand it. That attitude is very Colonial.

 

[Ad Initium]

I think it is a very good thing the army has not tried to prevent the uprising. Though they seem to be backing up Mubarak still, and his wishes to stay untill September.
It seems though all power is gone from Mubarak now (I am watching CNN) ... though that will always be relative for a leader that has been in power for so long. He will always have power when he is in Egypt, even if he is not President anymore.

 

[BrainBlow]

Mubarak has finally stepped down!
And by the way, The Muslim Brotherhood have said that they won't run for office. They only have about 15% support anyways.

And I'm quite frankly friggin' TIRED of the whole "Mubarak shouldn't be stepping down" shit that I've pretty much ONLY heard from the Israeli and American front! It is a load of jizz!

"Oh yeah we totally stand for democracy, except for when the dictator is on OUR side, of course!"
What a load of hypocritical shit.

 

[Ad Initium]

Mubarak has finally stepped down!
And by the way, The Muslim Brotherhood have said that they won't run for office. They only have about 15% support anyways.

And I'm quite frankly friggin' TIRED of the whole "Mubarak shouldn't be stepping down" shit that I've pretty much ONLY heard from the Israeli and American front! It is a load of jizz!

"Oh yeah we totally stand for democracy, except for when the dictator is on OUR side, of course!"
What a load of hypocritical shit.

^^ I second that!

Hench the:

Now all they have to do is get the $70,000,000,000.00 he seems to have, back to the State.

 

[MRaverz]

Mubarak has finally stepped down!
And by the way, The Muslim Brotherhood have said that they won't run for office. They only have about 15% support anyways.

And I'm quite frankly friggin' TIRED of the whole "Mubarak shouldn't be stepping down" shit that I've pretty much ONLY heard from the Israeli and American front! It is a load of jizz!

"Oh yeah we totally stand for democracy, except for when the dictator is on OUR side, of course!"
What a load of hypocritical shit.

Hey, I was only indulging myself into an intellectual consideration.


Also, why won't the Brotherhood run for office?