Draw Mohammed Day Cartoonist Forced into Hiding

[Pennies for Thoughts]

http://www.thenewamerican.com/index.php/usnews/crime/4626-better-not-draw-mohammed

Cartoonist Molly Norris' renunciation of, and opposition to, DMD hasn't helped; not with fatwa wielding, American-born Anwar al-Awlaki, who is himself on the run from US government-sanctioned assassins, calling for her head on a stake.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anwar_al-Awlaki

 

[lrkun]

http://www.thenewamerican.com/index.php/usnews/crime/4626-better-not-draw-mohammed

Cartoonist Molly Norris' renunciation of, and opposition to, DMD hasn't helped; not with fatwa wielding, American-born Anwar al-Awlaki, who is himself on the run from US government-sanctioned assassins, calling for her head on a stake.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anwar_al-Awlaki

The islam faith knows only one thing. To put the fear of allah into you. What's the best choice? Piss on Allah or take your winnings? Knowing when to stop is a good thing. However, in molly norris' case, what choice does she have left? Yes, she has a lot of choices. I hope it isn't resignation to this false faith. But, like everything else, I am a third person viewer, therefore I can't claim to understand how she feels.

Fear nothing. This is easier said than done, however, a small ounce of courage is essential for change.

 

[Andiferous]

That really p*sses me off. :evil:

http://forums.leagueofreason.co.uk/viewtopic.php?f=17&t=4375

 

[Aught3]

This is really sad, poor Molly :cry:

 

[Giliell]

I'm really sorry for her, I hope the situation clears in time and she can go back to a normal life.

But the situation is a bit ironic, isn't it: Two people denounced for being killed without as much as a trial. And each side claims to be justified.

@Irkun
Generalisation fail.
Not "Islam faith" knows only oen thing. Extremist terrorists know only one thing. I'm pretty sure my muslim green grocerer isn't involved in this.

 

[lrkun]

I'm really sorry for her, I hope the situation clears in time and she can go back to a normal life.

But the situation is a bit ironic, isn't it: Two people denounced for being killed without as much as a trial. And each side claims to be justified.

@Irkun
Generalisation fail.
Not "Islam faith" knows only oen thing. Extremist terrorists know only one thing. I'm pretty sure my muslim green grocerer isn't involved in this.

Yes, I blame the doctrines of the Islam faith. No, I am not pinpointing a specific person.

The following are examples:

1. Qur'an:9:5 "Fight and kill the disbelievers wherever you find them, take them captive, harass them, lie in wait and ambush them using every stratagem of war."
2. Qur'an:9:29 "Fight those who do not believe until they all surrender, paying the protective tax in submission."
3. Qur'an:8:39 "So fight them until there is no more Fitnah (disbelief [non-Muslims]) and all submit to the religion of Allah alone (in the whole world)."

Common sense dictates that doctrines like these will be detrimental to the said cartoonist. Muslim extremists will interpret these as an excuse for their own benefit. Your muslim green grocerer may not be involved, but if he or she has read the koran, he will harbor ill-will towards those who are neither Muslims nor Christians.

 

[Story]

1. Qur'an:9:5 "Fight and kill the disbelievers wherever you find them, take them captive, harass them, lie in wait and ambush them using every stratagem of war."
2. Qur'an:9:29 "Fight those who do not believe until they all surrender, paying the protective tax in submission."
3. Qur'an:8:39 "So fight them until there is no more Fitnah (disbelief [non-Muslims]) and all submit to the religion of Allah alone (in the whole world)."

Careful, you have some dodgy translations there.

1. Is talking about a specific incident where a group of Pagans broke a treaty against Muhammed and the Muslims. The actual text says:

9:5 But when the forbidden months are past, then fight and slay the Pagans wherever ye find them, an seize them, beleaguer them, and lie in wait for them in every stratagem (of war); but if they repent, and establish regular prayers and practise regular charity, then open the way for them: for Allah is Oft-forgiving, Most Merciful.

The following verse also says that if any one of them ask for asylum, then grant it to them.

9:6 If one amongst the Pagans ask thee for asylum, grant it to him, so that he may hear the word of Allah. and then escort him to where he can be secure. That is because they are men without knowledge.

The translation Pagan vs. Disbeliever is very important. The Arabic word is Mushrikun (pagan), not Karfirun (denier).

The previous two verses also put this in context, however, in saying:

9:3 And an announcement from Allah and His Messenger, to the people (assembled) on the day of the Great Pilgrimage,- that Allah and His Messenger dissolve (treaty) obligations with the Pagans. If then, ye repent, it were best for you; but if ye turn away, know ye that ye cannot frustrate Allah. And proclaim a grievous penalty to those who reject Faith.
9:4 (But the treaties are) not dissolved with those Pagans with whom ye have entered into alliance and who have not subsequently failed you in aught, nor aided any one against you. So fulfil your engagements with them to the end of their term: for Allah loveth the righteous.

Basically saying that the treaty is annulled with the Pagans that broke their side of the treaty.


2. The actual verse gives a bunch more conditions to fighting than your translation has omitted. The verse says:

9:29 29 Fight those who believe not in Allah nor the Last Day, nor hold that forbidden which hath been forbidden by Allah and His Messenger, nor acknowledge the religion of Truth of the People of the Book, until they pay the Jizya with willing submission, and feel themselves subdued.

It is specific to People of the book (Jews, Christians and Sabeans). The verse basically says that if the Jews or Christians do not believe in Allah and don't forbid that which has been forbidden by Allah and Muhammed and don't acknowledge Islam, then fight them. They have to do all those things, not just one, so it's disingenuous to only choose one and omit the rest.

According to tradition, this is related to an incident where Muslims were sent to the Arab Christian provinces to preach Islam and were slain for their practices.

3. That verse has a little bit of a dodgy translation too.

9:39 And fight them until persecution is no more, and religion is all for Allah. But if they cease, then lo! Allah is Seer of what they do.

This is what it actually means. The word Fitna does NOT mean disbelief. It is in no way related to the word disbelief. Fitna means persecution and oppression. That is the real meaning of the word, that being said however, we should note that Ibn Kathir's (1301-1373) exegesis of the Quran maintains that Ibn Abbas (a child companion of Muhammed) once said the word Fitna in this verse means kufr and shirk. Kufr (derivatives Kafir Kafirun) and shirk (derivatives Mushrik Mushrikun) have different meanings. Kufr is usually translated as disbelief, but it actually means "denial". It is used to reference obstinate denial of Allah in the Quran. Whilst shirk is usually translated as "idolatry or paganism", but it actually means "association", it is used to reference people that associate other god's with Allah's powers in the Quran, which is of course tantamount to paganism and idolatry.

Basically Ibn Abbas said that this verse means something other than it's literal meaning.

 

[ArthurWilborn]

2. The actual verse gives a bunch more conditions to fighting than your translation has omitted. The verse says:

9:29 29 Fight those who believe not in Allah nor the Last Day, nor hold that forbidden which hath been forbidden by Allah and His Messenger, nor acknowledge the religion of Truth of the People of the Book, until they pay the Jizya with willing submission, and feel themselves subdued.

It is specific to People of the book (Jews, Christians and Sabeans). The verse basically says that if the Jews or Christians do not believe in Allah and don't forbid that which has been forbidden by Allah and Muhammed and don't acknowledge Islam, then fight them. They have to do all those things, not just one, so it's disingenuous to only choose one and omit the rest.

According to tradition, this is related to an incident where Muslims were sent to the Arab Christian provinces to preach Islam and were slain for their practices.

I scarcely see how your apologetic offers any improvement. If someone does not believe in Allah, it would stand to reason that they would also not practice Islamic taboos or acknowledge the truth of Islam. "Disbeliever" seems to be an apt catch-all term. And even under your definition, this verse still sanctions the killing of cartoonists.

3. That verse has a little bit of a dodgy translation too.

9:39 And fight them until persecution is no more, and religion is all for Allah. But if they cease, then lo! Allah is Seer of what they do.

This is what it actually means. The word Fitna does NOT mean disbelief. It is in no way related to the word disbelief. Fitna means persecution and oppression. That is the real meaning of the word, that being said however, we should note that Ibn Kathir's (1301-1373) exegesis of the Quran maintains that Ibn Abbas (a child companion of Muhammed) once said the word Fitna in this verse means kufr and shirk. Kufr (derivatives Kafir Kafirun) and shirk (derivatives Mushrik Mushrikun) have different meanings. Kufr is usually translated as disbelief, but it actually means "denial". It is used to reference obstinate denial of Allah in the Quran. Whilst shirk is usually translated as "idolatry or paganism", but it actually means "association", it is used to reference people that associate other god's with Allah's powers in the Quran, which is of course tantamount to paganism and idolatry.

Basically Ibn Abbas said that this verse means something other than it's literal meaning.

Oh, come on. You know full well that to the fanatic there's no difference between simple disagreement, obstinant denial, and persecution. This verse, under a reactionary reading (such as has been common in Islam for centuries) is a call for a pogrom against all non-Muslims.

 

[lrkun]

1. Qur'an:9:5 "Fight and kill the disbelievers wherever you find them, take them captive, harass them, lie in wait and ambush them using every stratagem of war."
2. Qur'an:9:29 "Fight those who do not believe until they all surrender, paying the protective tax in submission."
3. Qur'an:8:39 "So fight them until there is no more Fitnah (disbelief [non-Muslims]) and all submit to the religion of Allah alone (in the whole world)."

Careful, you have some dodgy translations there.

1. Is talking about a specific incident where a group of Pagans broke a treaty against Muhammed and the Muslims. The actual text says:

9:5 But when the forbidden months are past, then fight and slay the Pagans wherever ye find them, an seize them, beleaguer them, and lie in wait for them in every stratagem (of war); but if they repent, and establish regular prayers and practise regular charity, then open the way for them: for Allah is Oft-forgiving, Most Merciful.

The following verse also says that if any one of them ask for asylum, then grant it to them.

9:6 If one amongst the Pagans ask thee for asylum, grant it to him, so that he may hear the word of Allah. and then escort him to where he can be secure. That is because they are men without knowledge.

The translation Pagan vs. Disbeliever is very important. The Arabic word is Mushrikun (pagan), not Karfirun (denier).

The previous two verses also put this in context, however, in saying:

9:3 And an announcement from Allah and His Messenger, to the people (assembled) on the day of the Great Pilgrimage,- that Allah and His Messenger dissolve (treaty) obligations with the Pagans. If then, ye repent, it were best for you; but if ye turn away, know ye that ye cannot frustrate Allah. And proclaim a grievous penalty to those who reject Faith.
9:4 (But the treaties are) not dissolved with those Pagans with whom ye have entered into alliance and who have not subsequently failed you in aught, nor aided any one against you. So fulfil your engagements with them to the end of their term: for Allah loveth the righteous.

Basically saying that the treaty is annulled with the Pagans that broke their side of the treaty.


2. The actual verse gives a bunch more conditions to fighting than your translation has omitted. The verse says:

9:29 29 Fight those who believe not in Allah nor the Last Day, nor hold that forbidden which hath been forbidden by Allah and His Messenger, nor acknowledge the religion of Truth of the People of the Book, until they pay the Jizya with willing submission, and feel themselves subdued.

It is specific to People of the book (Jews, Christians and Sabeans). The verse basically says that if the Jews or Christians do not believe in Allah and don't forbid that which has been forbidden by Allah and Muhammed and don't acknowledge Islam, then fight them. They have to do all those things, not just one, so it's disingenuous to only choose one and omit the rest.

According to tradition, this is related to an incident where Muslims were sent to the Arab Christian provinces to preach Islam and were slain for their practices.

3. That verse has a little bit of a dodgy translation too.

9:39 And fight them until persecution is no more, and religion is all for Allah. But if they cease, then lo! Allah is Seer of what they do.

This is what it actually means. The word Fitna does NOT mean disbelief. It is in no way related to the word disbelief. Fitna means persecution and oppression. That is the real meaning of the word, that being said however, we should note that Ibn Kathir's (1301-1373) exegesis of the Quran maintains that Ibn Abbas (a child companion of Muhammed) once said the word Fitna in this verse means kufr and shirk. Kufr (derivatives Kafir Kafirun) and shirk (derivatives Mushrik Mushrikun) have different meanings. Kufr is usually translated as disbelief, but it actually means "denial". It is used to reference obstinate denial of Allah in the Quran. Whilst shirk is usually translated as "idolatry or paganism", but it actually means "association", it is used to reference people that associate other god's with Allah's powers in the Quran, which is of course tantamount to paganism and idolatry.

Basically Ibn Abbas said that this verse means something other than it's literal meaning.

It calls for our destruction. :shock:

To quote myself

Common sense dictates that doctrines like these will be detrimental to the said cartoonist. Muslim extremists will interpret these as an excuse for their own benefit. Your muslim green grocerer may not be involved, but if he or she has read the koran, he will harbor ill-will towards those who are neither Muslims nor Christians.

 

[Story]

I scarcely see how your apologetic offers any improvement. If someone does not believe in Allah, it would stand to reason that they would also not practice Islamic taboos or acknowledge the truth of Islam. "Disbeliever" seems to be an apt catch-all term. And even under your definition, this verse still sanctions the killing of cartoonists.

Disbeliever is not what the verse says, my "apologetic" was merely to address the deceptive translation. It is important to address what the Quran does and doesn't say and it's a matter of honesty not to interpolate words that don't exist in it.

That being said, you are right. This verse along with the other two can be and will be taken by militant Muslims to mean that they are supposed to kill all other people that aren't Muslim until they submit to Allah or pay Jizya and these interpretations of these verses stem back to the advent of Islam. Abu Ala Maududi's exegesis of the Quran says that this verse applies to everyone that isn't Muslim, because Muhammed applied Jizya to Zoroastrians.

The majority of Muslims ignore these verses or re-interpret them to mean other than what they say or to be a specific order for their times, which essentially they are.

Oh, come on. You know full well that to the fanatic there's no difference between simple disagreement, obstinant denial, and persecution. This verse, under a reactionary reading (such as has been common in Islam for centuries) is a call for a pogrom against all non-Muslims.

To a fanatic, it doesn't matter if these verses exist in their exactness or not. You only need war-torn provinces and enough motivation to call to arms and the most fundamental will become fanatically violent built on the belief that their misery is due the the existence of non-Muslims.

Besidess, the kufr and shirk argument is something that Ibn Abbas proposed. It is not what the verses mean or say. When I was a Muslim, I disagreed with a lot of his explanations.

 

[Story]

It calls for our destruction. :shock:

To quote myself

Common sense dictates that doctrines like these will be detrimental to the said cartoonist. Muslim extremists will interpret these as an excuse for their own benefit. Your muslim green grocerer may not be involved, but if he or she has read the koran, he will harbor ill-will towards those who are neither Muslims nor Christians.

Yes, for sure these verses can and will be used to inspire violence, but they generally aren't. Even by people that read the Quran like I did. There was a time where I was told things by people about non-Muslims that made me dislike them, but when I actually studied the Quran for myself my opinions completely changed.

It also led to my atheism.

 

[lrkun]

Yes, for sure these verses can and will be used to inspire violence, but they generally aren't. Even by people that read the Quran like I did. There was a time where I was told things by people about non-Muslims that made me dislike them, but when I actually studied the Quran for myself my opinions completely changed.

It also led to my atheism.

The difference between you and them is that you think. Therefore you know better. Nevertheless, not many become atheists like you.

Another difference is that their belief template is not similar to yours.

People like me will criticize the koran, because it is one of the foundation in which a muslim may use as a guide in his or her way of life. It is the foundation in which the leaders teach their followers. It is the only foundation for the accepted word of allah, because you know that allah does not show himself to you directly.

The problem with the koran is, it is just a book. It contains words which can be read and interpreted in a number of ways. There is no correct interpretation. There are better books out there which could replace the koran in its entirety.

 

[Story]

The difference between you and them is that you think. Therefore you know better. Nevertheless, not many become atheists like you.

Another difference is that their belief template is not similar to yours.

I've considered this, but there is also a multitude of Muslims that do think, as I did, but that their minds do not wander to atheism.

We must also remember that there is no synoptic perspective or understanding in any religion. Each individual adherent will have different understandings of how and why things work, even if they do often parrot the same articles.

 

[Amerist]

Well, that's utterly dreadful. Molly even went out of her way to disown her involvement in the project and she's still become the center of this sort of attention. I guess it's hard to tell where villainy will come from these days -- and the Everybody Draw Muhammad Day project as "I am Spartacus!" certainly rang as a very poignant criticism of the explosion of ignorance that rang from death-threat-throwing extremist Muslims, and Imams who generated their own fake cartoons in order to deliberately spur violence. :cry:

 

[Story]

Imams who generated their own fake cartoons in order to deliberately spur violence. :cry:

Seriously?

 

[Aught3]

Imams who generated their own fake cartoons in order to deliberately spur violence. :cry:

Seriously?

I'm not sure it's accurate to say that Imams generated their own fake cartoons, but they definitely spread them around and they were way more offensive than the originals.

 

[lrkun]

The difference between you and them is that you think. Therefore you know better. Nevertheless, not many become atheists like you.

Another difference is that their belief template is not similar to yours.

I've considered this, but there is also a multitude of Muslims that do think, as I did, but that their minds do not wander to atheism.

We must also remember that there is no synoptic perspective or understanding in any religion. Each individual adherent will have different understandings of how and why things work, even if they do often parrot the same articles.

I doubt they question that which is written within the text of the koran. There is a general perspective or understanding of any religion, I am surprised that you think it is specialized in a way that it is different for everyone. They may have their own particular understanding, but the provisions themselves provide a general understanding. Otherwise, it will be called false for being inconsistent.

In short. Islam has a theme.

 

[Giliell]

Common sense dictates that doctrines like these will be detrimental to the said cartoonist. Muslim extremists will interpret these as an excuse for their own benefit. Your muslim green grocerer may not be involved, but if he or she has read the koran, he will harbor ill-will towards those who are neither Muslims nor Christians.

So you've been to the college of common sense? That's where you go after you've finnished the high-school of "My dad always said". I've heard that they offer degrees in "the sun moves around the earth, obviously" and "fructose is good for you because it comes from fruit" (that's a post-grad).
Common sense isn't worth a shit if talking about complicated matters.
I don't know what's worse: your ignorance or your arrogance.
You're ignorant because you just sprout out of context quotes in Geert Wilders style to prove that muslims are violent by nature and assume that ALL muslims will feel the same way.
You're arrogant because you assume to know what thoughts and feelings someone you've never met has by knowing only the one simple fact that that person is a muslim.
I have no idea what that man thinks about those carricatures. I've never talked with him on any non-shopping-related matters. I know he sells alcohol and the girl who works there wears less fabric on her whole body in summer than some other muslim women wear on their head. So I assume that he is pretty cool with other people and life-styles and doesn't take the Qu'ran too serious. But that's guesswork.

The problem isn't the Qu'ran. That's a fucking book. The problem is people who use it to justify their terrorism. The bible is a fucking book, too and you'll find a hell lot of disgusting stories in it and a hell lot of appeals to kill people. But I haven't heard of christians burning wiccans lately because "thou shall not suffer a witch to live".

@cartoons
Whether fake or not, I think we can all agree that those imams used them to spur violence and provoke attacks. Extremists always need the other side to behave "badly" so they can keep the sheep angry and without thinking. It is hard to convince people that the west is the enemy and wants to destroy muslims if a newly built mosque somewhere in western Europe is inaugurated with a big intercultural celebration. The mayor, the imam and the christian pastor drinking tea together and eating baklava doesn't make good news for extremists in Pakistan

 

[lrkun]

Common sense dictates that doctrines like these will be detrimental to the said cartoonist. Muslim extremists will interpret these as an excuse for their own benefit. Your muslim green grocerer may not be involved, but if he or she has read the koran, he will harbor ill-will towards those who are neither Muslims nor Christians.

So you've been to the college of common sense? That's where you go after you've finnished the high-school of "My dad always said". I've heard that they offer degrees in "the sun moves around the earth, obviously" and "fructose is good for you because it comes from fruit" (that's a post-grad).
Common sense isn't worth a shit if talking about complicated matters.
I don't know what's worse: your ignorance or your arrogance.
You're ignorant because you just sprout out of context quotes in Geert Wilders style to prove that muslims are violent by nature and assume that ALL muslims will feel the same way.
You're arrogant because you assume to know what thoughts and feelings someone you've never met has by knowing only the one simple fact that that person is a muslim.
I have no idea what that man thinks about those carricatures. I've never talked with him on any non-shopping-related matters. I know he sells alcohol and the girl who works there wears less fabric on her whole body in summer than some other muslim women wear on their head. So I assume that he is pretty cool with other people and life-styles and doesn't take the Qu'ran too serious. But that's guesswork.

The problem isn't the Qu'ran. That's a fucking book. The problem is people who use it to justify their terrorism. The bible is a fucking book, too and you'll find a hell lot of disgusting stories in it and a hell lot of appeals to kill people. But I haven't heard of christians burning wiccans lately because "thou shall not suffer a witch to live".

@cartoons
Whether fake or not, I think we can all agree that those imams used them to spur violence and provoke attacks. Extremists always need the other side to behave "badly" so they can keep the sheep angry and without thinking. It is hard to convince people that the west is the enemy and wants to destroy muslims if a newly built mosque somewhere in western Europe is inaugurated with a big intercultural celebration. The mayor, the imam and the christian pastor drinking tea together and eating baklava doesn't make good news for extremists in Pakistan

You need to be exposed to the real world asap. I forgive your ignorance. I accept your criticism and it is okay that you assume things without actually knowing what it is, for now, you don't know better and that's okay.

The koran is a dangerous book, because it can be interpreted in a way that is detrimental to society. Like all ideas, in themselves they are only ideas, they don't affect the physical world, however, when one adheres to such and uses it for a certain goal, that is when the fun starts.

To quote myself again.

Yes, I blame the doctrines of the Islam faith. No, I am not pinpointing a specific person.

The following are examples:

1. Qur'an:9:5 "Fight and kill the disbelievers wherever you find them, take them captive, harass them, lie in wait and ambush them using every stratagem of war."
2. Qur'an:9:29 "Fight those who do not believe until they all surrender, paying the protective tax in submission."
3. Qur'an:8:39 "So fight them until there is no more Fitnah (disbelief [non-Muslims]) and all submit to the religion of Allah alone (in the whole world)."

Common sense dictates that doctrines like these will be detrimental to the said cartoonist. Muslim extremists will interpret these as an excuse for their own benefit. Your muslim green grocerer may not be involved, but if he or she has read the koran, he will harbor ill-will towards those who are neither Muslims nor Christians.

Note, I am applying this in a single situation, it is with respect to the cartoonist.

The point of matter is that doctrines and interpretation can be used against the cartoonist.

Now with respect to your grocer, if you're really troubled. Ask him with regard to what he feels about the cartoonist who made fun of muhamed. Does he hate the person, ashamed, feeling a sense of face palm? His answer will clarify things for you.

 

[Giliell]

You need to be exposed to the real world asap. I forgive your ignorance. I accept your criticism and it is okay that you assume things without actually knowing what it is, for now, you don't know better and that's okay.

LOL :lol: :lol: :lol:
You made my day