Do non physical things exist?

[Led Zeppelin]

And you're sure of this because...?

Because when you goto court and tell the judge "I broke that guys legs because of my environment.", you goto prison.

 

[Led Zeppelin]

So take 2 different creatures. Neither of which demonstrate much ability to act independently of their environment. Say an ant and something else. The ant still might be considered an higher life form because it can carry things around, build ant hills and cut leaves with its mandibles and so on..

Is that ok???

 

[Deleted member 619]

Because when you goto court and tell the judge "I broke that guys legs because of my environment.", you goto prison.

This is a red herring. How the judge responds to an assertion has ne bearing on the truth value of the assertion.

 

[Sparhafoc]

A bee doesnt choose to sting someone. It is direct consequence of environment.

No sorry LZ, but your ideas of biology are seriously outdated if you think that other animals are automatons.

 

[Deleted member 619]

So take 2 different creatures. Neither of which demonstrate much ability to act independently of their environment.

I'm still trying to ascertain what it means for something to act independently of environment, since all the characteristics you've granted the concept have been shown to exist in other organisms. Rather than an example of something you think fulfils the criteria, it would be best if you simply defined what you mean by independent of environment.

Say an ant and something else. The ant still might be considered an higher life form because it can carry things around, build ant hills and cut leaves with its mandibles and so on..

Is that ok???

Ants do something else that pretty much no other organism does, namely they manipulate themselves to circumvent the constraints of their environment (they build bridges out of their bodies, etc.).

This whole idea of a scale of life is muddled thinking that should have been laid to rest with Aristotle. Unfortunately, since he's the immediate progeny of the Platonic bottleneck of thought, we still accord his ideas far more credence than we should. He was, in many ways, an idiot by today's standards.

 

[Led Zeppelin]

Alternatively, you could ask whether we really make choices that are any different to ants - it's not like we can choose to be something other than a biological human choosing from among a suite of things biological humans can do. I can't just choose to flap my wings and fly away, thereby doing something that is not a consequence of my surroundings.

Well sure we can only do the things that we can do. But we have the ability to think about who we are and who we want to be, for instance and use these thoughts to determine our actions in spite of our environment. Ants do not.

 

[Deleted member 619]

But we have the ability to think about who we are and who we want to be, for instance and use these thoughts to determine our actions in spite of our environment. Ants do not.

And you now this how? You honestly think there's any organism whose behaviours aren't environmentally constrained? It's certainly not true of humans. There isn't a single thing that humans do that isn't mirrored in other organisms. The only difference with humans is scale.

 

[Sparhafoc]

Right I would say you need to consider both the ability to manipulate and the ability to act independently of environment.

Well, frankly, the problem is that I have no concept whatsoever (again) of what you mean by 'act independently of environment' because, as best I can imagine, no biological species can act independently of their environment.

Dolphins cant build things that ants can because they dont have required apendages.

And that's actually the sum analysis you need to dispell the other contention you've made.

Organism X doesn't possess the same organs as organism Y, and thus can't use the organs they don't have in a way that organism X can because it does have those organs.

But I think they demonstrate an ability to act more independently.

Well, of course they do - a dolphin's brain's volume is thousands and thousands of times larger than that of a bee's.

So you would have to weight one against the other. I dont think this impossible to do..im certainly no expert..

Do you mean in terms of comparative brain quotients?

I am not sure what that would tell us.

Look, let's go back and start addressing the already identified problems without introducing new ones.

Explain what you mean when you use the term 'consciousness'.

 

[Sparhafoc]

So take 2 different creatures. Neither of which demonstrate much ability to act independently of their environment. Say an ant and something else. The ant still might be considered an higher life form because it can carry things around, build ant hills and cut leaves with its mandibles and so on..

Is that ok???

I'm just not sensing what value any of this has.

I don't understand the concept of a biological species acting independently of its environment: seems a contradiction in terms to me.

I don't understand the concept of 'higher life forms' from a scientific perspective.

But mostly I am not sure how any of this is helping either of us understand your argument about consciousness.

 

[Sparhafoc]

Well sure we can only do the things that we can do. But we have the ability to think about who we are...

Which is one of the things 'we can do' no?

It's like you're trying to divide things up in such a way as to make a special category for us .

use these thoughts to determine our actions in spite of our environment.

In spite of our environment? Can our thoughts let us ignore the heat of a burning building? Can our thoughts make us full when we're hungry?

I'm just not seeing what you mean by this.

Ants do not.

And we don't squirt messages out of special glands that can inform other ants to make choices.

Does that indicate they're 'higher' than us given your previous definition of being in possession of an ability the other cannot do?

 

[Sparhafoc]

Because when you goto court and tell the judge "I broke that guys legs because of my environment.", you goto prison.

Ants don't have courts, prisons, speech, justice, codified morality, prohibition, laws, judges etc.

So how are we comparing the above with ants?

 

[Sparhafoc]

Incidentally, if you had a body and brain the same size as an ant's, you'd not actually be able to do anything, let alone contemplate ideas - fortunately, you'd die instantly, so it wouldn't be involve too much suffering.

 

[Deleted member 619]

I don't understand the concept of a biological species acting independently of its environment: seems a contradiction in terms to me.

The really interesting thing about all this is that everything about an organism's ability to act in any way is a direct product of environment.

 

[Sparhafoc]

It's an essential way of understanding what a species is.

 

[Led Zeppelin]

Well, frankly, the problem is that I have no concept whatsoever (again) of what you mean by 'act independently of environment' because, as best I can imagine, no biological species can act independently of their environment.

It means to preform actions that are not controlled or influenced by our surroundings. Some decisions we make are the result of internal reflection.

 

[Led Zeppelin]

Explain what you mean when you use the term 'consciousness'.

I think it has 2 meanings. One is self awareness and another is "the ability to wonder about why you are what you are". I like the 2nd one better.

 

[Deleted member 619]

It means to preform actions that are not controlled or influenced by our surroundings. Some decisions we make are the result of internal reflection.

Then you're talking about characteristics not possessed by any organism extant or extinct. No action is or can ever be free from influence or control of environment.

 

[Deleted member 619]

I think it has 2 meanings. One is self awareness and another is "the ability to wonder about why you are what you are". I like the 2nd one better.

Those are the same definition, and I already demonstrated that consciousness is a product of simple, straightforward mechanisms entirely in line with evolution.

 

[Led Zeppelin]

Which is one of the things 'we can do' no?

It's like you're trying to divide things up in such a way as to make a special category for us .

Im not trying to do anything. I literally just thought of this 2 hours ago and I never knew that evolutionists do not classify things as being higher and lower. I thought for sure that they did. This entire disscussion is a surprise to me.

In spite of our environment? Can our thoughts let us ignore the heat of a burning building?

Well its probably not the best example, but yes. A person will run into a burning building and die trying to save a loved one. This happens.

And we don't squirt messages out of special glands that can inform other ants to make choices.

Does that indicate they're 'higher' than us given your previous definition of being in possession of an ability the other cannot do?

I would say no. Our abillity to act independently out weights the ability of an ants to release pheromones.

 

[Led Zeppelin]

Then you're talking about characteristics not possessed by any organism extant or extinct. No action is or can ever be free from influence or control of environment.

Do you think that some actions are at least less influenced by enviroment than others?