Do ethics matter anymore?

[Otokogoroshi]

Yeah... I think that our opinion of your downloading patterns are the least of your worries, don't you?

Haha! I was just irked that day. Over it by now. Things have been annoying around my house since my dad retired. Boooo on stress.

 

[scikidus]

Adding two things to this conversation:

1. Joe: do you think that your opinions could apply in other generations as well? What if you were a parent who had grown up in the war years and your kids were plunging headfirst into the summer of love? Or you were born in 1890s and saw the younger generation dancing to this horrendous, scandalous "ragtime"? It seems that every generation has laments about what the next generation is doing to the world. And before you point it out: yes, I understand that this case doesn't only apply to the younger generation, but I feel like the point still stands.

2. A major excuse for unethical actions is that the action harms a group, not an individual. Cheating on your taxes? Who cares? You're harming the IRS, it's big enough to take care of itself. Pirating "UP"? Fuck Disney-Pixar, they charge too much for their movies anyway! It's this mentality which leads to most of the activities you describe.

 

[ImprobableJoe]

Adding two things to this conversation:

1. Joe: do you think that your opinions could apply in other generations as well? What if you were a parent who had grown up in the war years and your kids were plunging headfirst into the summer of love? Or you were born in 1890s and saw the younger generation dancing to this horrendous, scandalous "ragtime"? It seems that every generation has laments about what the next generation is doing to the world. And before you point it out: yes, I understand that this case doesn't only apply to the younger generation, but I feel like the point still stands.

I think I mentioned in the OP that I don't believe that there was ever some sort of "golden age of ethics" some time in the past. More importantly, I'm not talking about musical fads or youth culture. Dick Cheney isn't exactly the "next generation" although he seems old enough to be part of the first generation. Point is, this doesn't come from looking around at the young shitheads, although the kids entering college today are probably the laziest in world history... It seems to have infected the whole world.

But who knows... maybe this stuff is part of human nature, and it is only the way it is expressed that changed?

2. A major excuse for unethical actions is that the action harms a group, not an individual. Cheating on your taxes? Who cares? You're harming the IRS, it's big enough to take care of itself. Pirating "UP"? Fuck Disney-Pixar, they charge too much for their movies anyway! It's this mentality which leads to most of the activities you describe.

Right, which plays against what we were talking about earlier with the idea that we're ethical towards our in-group, and feel justified in fucking over the nameless "them" in the out-group.

 

[Otokogoroshi]

]Right, which plays against what we were talking about earlier with the idea that we're ethical towards our in-group, and feel justified in fucking over the nameless "them" in the out-group.

I made a pretty good post about that early on but seemingly it was dismissed and or ignored off the bat. Not sure.

 

[ImprobableJoe]

I made a pretty good post about that early on but seemingly it was dismissed and or ignored off the bat. Not sure.

It got lost in the overflowing crap from that "Pirate Party" toilet.

 

[Pulsar]

1. Joe: do you think that your opinions could apply in other generations as well? What if you were a parent who had grown up in the war years and your kids were plunging headfirst into the summer of love? Or you were born in 1890s and saw the younger generation dancing to this horrendous, scandalous "ragtime"? It seems that every generation has laments about what the next generation is doing to the world. And before you point it out: yes, I understand that this case doesn't only apply to the younger generation, but I feel like the point still stands.

"The children now love luxury; they have bad manners, contempt for authority; they show disrespect for elders and love chatter in place of exercise. Children are now tyrants, not the servants of their households. They no longer rise when elders enter the room. They contradict their parents, chatter before company, gobble up dainties at the table, cross their legs, and tyrannize their teachers."
- Socrates (469-399 B.C.)

 

[Otokogoroshi]

"The children now love luxury; they have bad manners, contempt for authority; they show disrespect for elders and love chatter in place of exercise. Children are now tyrants, not the servants of their households. They no longer rise when elders enter the room. They contradict their parents, chatter before company, gobble up dainties at the table, cross their legs, and tyrannize their teachers."
- Socrates (469-399 B.C.)

I think its pretty age old for the elder generations to look at the younger and sneer at least a little

 

[scikidus]

I think I mentioned in the OP that I don't believe that there was ever some sort of "golden age of ethics" some time in the past. More importantly, I'm not talking about musical fads or youth culture. Dick Cheney isn't exactly the "next generation" although he seems old enough to be part of the first generation. Point is, this doesn't come from looking around at the young shitheads, although the kids entering college today are probably the laziest in world history... It seems to have infected the whole world.

But who knows... maybe this stuff is part of human nature, and it is only the way it is expressed that changed?

Thank goodness for the internet. Now, in thrity years when society hasn't fallen apart, I can remidn you of this thread. :lol:

Right, which plays against what we were talking about earlier with the idea that we're ethical towards our in-group, and feel justified in fucking over the nameless "them" in the out-group.

So, is there any way for groups to "individualize" themselves, thus annulling this excuse?

 

[irmerk]

As scikidus wrote on part one, which you apparently did not understand, comparing this generation to past generations kind of puts it in perspective. He did not reference a golden age, but rather the past generation changes. Every generation thinks the next is going to shit. That is what he meant, not that there was one deciding moment.
To start, I want to try to address your examples presented in the OP.

No one drives the speed limit anymore... in fact, if you are only driving 5-10 MPH over the speed limit you'll get run over on the interstate.

In Montana, they eliminated the speed limits on roads and highways (Or maybe it was just highways). Do you know what happened? Casualties and accidents did not rise. In fact, they declined. It turns out that people will always drive what speed they want and think is safe for them. This does not seem to be an issue of ethics, so I think it is just a bad example towards the premise of the OP. I understand the concept of people doing it just because police will not catch them, but that is only in the context of being subject to the seemingly unjust law. So, really, the law is in question in this situation and not the deftly act of speeding.

People download illegal copies of music and movies, and see nothing wrong with it.

Yeah, I really have a hard time figuring out what I really think on this subject. As I understand, bands make their money primarily from concerts and live tours, not the CD's. In that sense, if I am right, fuck Metallica. I think it is an intellectual property consideration. I am sure you do not want to debate this right now, but I do not know if you can really use it as an example without clearly laying out the entirety of this subject. If people can get something for free, they will. I would be willing to bet that if a band "X" were to take on this black market and make their CD's free, they would make more money just by donations and pleased customers and followers. I may be wrong, but, again, it is another subject.

They complain that there shouldn't even be laws making it illegal, because they are "entitled" to something for nothing.

Haha, watch that video... Yeah, I do not agree with the concept of being entitled to someones work for nothing, so I do not disagree there. However, I do not think that is the overwhelming feeling of people. I think it is more to the skew of feeling cheated by the record companies and countless corporations involved in the process which they do not like in the first place much less after learning more and more every day that so many corporations are corrupt.

Divorce and adultery are rampant to the point that there's an online dating service for married people looking to cheat on their spouses.

I think this is the best example of ethics so far (Piracy being the second best out of two). However, I do not think this is about becoming less ethical and rationalizing it, but rather people reducing their own dependence on traditions which no longer make as much sense to them. If people question marriage and premarital sex, they find that traditional ideologies are kind of irrational and feel not required to heed to them. That does not really mean that the tradition is infallible and the heretic is in the wrong, especially when the people themselves probably can justify their position. The cheating part, though, is a good example. This will tie into something I will try and address down farther in this post: Look for 'lack of responsibility.'

Religious folks have been engaging in a war on science and reason, claiming that we secular types are evil and immoral, while using lies and half-truths to make that case.

Oh this is just the trend of religion and dogma regardless of time. I think this also will tie into 'lack of responsibility.'

The world economic system is in chaos because lots of people thought that they could get something for next to nothing, and corporations and banks drove prices sky-high for short-term gains, knowing that when it all crashed they could walk away with their fortune and let the government absorb the losses.

Capitalism is practically at odds with ethics in my opinion. The government always has to put in regulations because of it's exploits. This is just the nature of capitalism, not necessarily a current slip of ethics. The real problem you would be seeing here is probably just the wax and wane of capitalism's effect to society.

In America, the government has declared that torturing prisoners in violation of the law is acceptable if they are accused of a bad enough crime (terrorism) but they have no right to be tried for terrorism and be convicted or released. No one can be convicted for violating the Geneva Convention, because it would be "uncomfortable" from a purely political standpoint.

I like the back and forth between you and Ozymandyus. I find it weird to say torture is wrong and then try to justify it later because of the graveness of the situation. If we are going to set standards and principles, we should stick to them: No torture means NO TORTURE! If we want to set a standard of subjective torture, then try it out and see if our 'democracy' approves, but do not try and have it both ways.

Whew, sorry. I just had a problem with just a couple of those examples, and it turned into a lot...

Okay, as for 'lack of responsibility'... What I think the main source of this degradation of ethics is would be just a few major things: Religion, lack of education and mob mentality.

Now, to explain each. Religion accounts for the lack of responsibility because people think they are entitled to everything seeing as everything was created for their enjoyment. What a crock of shit. This leads to the rationalization of ruining the world through a lack of sustainability because the second coming is in their lifetime or whatever. These people are literally taught to take things for granted and have no responsibility. If they do something bad to you, they do not have to apologize to you or live up to it. Rather, they only need to ask for forgiveness to Jesus. How fucked up is this? Well, it leads to a lot of the shit you are seeing.

Connected with this is the lack of education in regards to cause and effect and responsibility. Sustainability and concepts like it are not taught to kids in schools, or at least I just did not see it. Kids need to see this in perspective. I do not know, maybe have class case studies. Show them how if they are some CEO like Carnegie, what they do to lower prices may seem great until they see what atrocities it does to others and future generations. Kids come out of school with everything catered to them, and think it is all about them. Sure, everyone loves to feel all warm and fuzzy inside, but when is it going to stop?

Mob mentality: Credit and the economic crisis is a good example for this. I think the main reason for everyone using so much science damned credit was the sense that if everyone else was getting theirs why not get his or her own? Everyone else was getting all this nice stuff and paying it off later, and you are just sitting there with a shitty apartment. Well, fuck, everyone else is doing it and do not seem to be in too much debt, so I might as well! Look where that took us... I think it is a nice parallel. Carnegie probably felt like if he did not take advantage first, someone else would, so he might as well and get his. Maybe it is rooted in distrust of society which sustains itself. Laff.

My science, that was long. Anyway, I think better education, as well as just addressing this problem and further refining it, would probably fix it for the most part.

 

[ImprobableJoe]

Thank goodness for the internet. Now, in thrity years when society hasn't fallen apart, I can remidn you of this thread. :lol:

I don't think society is going to "fall apart" but it might not be as pleasant as it currently is.

So, is there any way for groups to "individualize" themselves, thus annulling this excuse?

I don't know if there's any way to get around "us vs them." Every time there's a new technology involving communications, people claim it will open horizons, get people together in new ways... and all it seems to do is isolate them even further. Take the Internet. Instead of the Internet making everyone better informed, it has made ignorant people even more entrenched in their ignorance than ever before. People become more isolated from new ideas. I don't know...


... maybe it starts with driving the speed limit?