Do animals have religion

[WarK]

Thing is, the pigeon is too stupid to realize that its actions have nothing to do with the food release.

prayer? anyone? :lol:

 

[Andiferous]

They have found evidence that Neanderthal probably did. Neanderthal skeletons were often buried with various items, which in other archaeological investigations (ie Egypt) was associated with belief and preparation for the afterlife. Obviously they are extinct; but they weren't human either.

Ehm, yes they were human, they just weren't modern humans. they were our closest cousins and even mixed with our own species (recent studies suggest that a small percentage (some 2%) of Neanderthal DNA is part of the western European genome)

I would wonder how pets who have such close contact with humans like dogs view us, since we seem to posses many of the qualities we ascribe to gods

Yes, although I meant particularly "homo sapien neanderthalus" as opposed to "homo sapien sapiens." I suppose it would depend on how one defined "human beings." In general we have genes from all assorts of anscestors in our make-up, but we are "homo sapien sapiens."

 

[Independent Vision]

Cats believe they ARE gods, does that count as religion?

 

[Deleted member 619]

Haven't they shown that pigeons can be made to exhibit behaviour that equates to superstition? The researchers waited until a pigeon made a certain action, then dropped a piece of food in and from that point onwards, the pigeons made that action when they wanted food, even though the food was now being released on a timer and the pigeon's actions had no effect on it at all.
I'm sure I read it somewhere, perhaps even in The God Delusion.

I'm not sure, if labellimg that "superstition" isn't too much anthropomorphing.
Thing is, the pigeon is too stupid to realize that its actions have nothing to do with the food release.
It's just like the dog and the trash collector: There's a noise and action going on that the dog perceives as a threat to its pack, so he starts demonstrating agressive behaviour. And behold, the threat disappears. So the dog thinks that its behaviour had the desired effect, even though the trash collectors would have disappeared anyway.

The very definition of superstitious behaviour. Precisely equivalent to tossing salt over one's shoulder.

 

[Giliell]

@Andiferous
OK, just a missunderstanding.
I guess you could blame it on creationists who deny the "humanity" of our ancestors by labelling them as "apes".

@Hackenlash
No, because their action has an effect. And it is totally part of their natural behaviour. Showing agressive behaviour against intruders is nothing superstitious. It is very often very effective and chases the intruder away. that's why people keep watchdogs. They only don't realize that in case of the trash collector, it's not due to their action.
The dog experiences: In case of an intruder, barking chases them away.
Intruder = postman -> bark, bark, postman leaves
Intruder = burglar -> bark, bark, burglar leaves
Intruder = Avon Lady -> bark, bark, Lady leaves
Intruder = trash collector -> bark, bark, bark, stupid deaf trash collector leaves.

Tossing salt over your shoulder is due to the believe that bad things will not occur then because of some supernatural force you have no direct experience of.

 

[Deleted member 619]

@Hackenlash
No, because their action has an effect. And it is totally part of their natural behaviour. Showing agressive behaviour against intruders is nothing superstitious. It is very often very effective and chases the intruder away. that's why people keep watchdogs. They only don't realize that in case of the trash collector, it's not due to their action.
The dog experiences: In case of an intruder, barking chases them away.
Intruder = postman -> bark, bark, postman leaves
Intruder = burglar -> bark, bark, burglar leaves
Intruder = Avon Lady -> bark, bark, Lady leaves
Intruder = trash collector -> bark, bark, bark, stupid deaf trash collector leaves.

Tossing salt over your shoulder is due to the believe that bad things will not occur then because of some supernatural force you have no direct experience of.

I was talking about the pigeons. I should have made that clearer.

 

[Cnidarious]

I would be interested in
finding out weather religion, or any form of supersition based thinking is
observable in Cephalopod social interaction, or for that matter any
type of ritualistic practice, or weather Supersition is purely a Tetropodal phenomina.

Can you provide a link for cephalopod and tetrapod?

P.s. Whether not weather. :3

you don`t know what tetropods and cephalopods are?
i can do better then a link, i can just tell you.

Tetropods = four limbed land animals.

Cephalopods = tentacled mollusks including Octopi, squid and cuttlefish.

 

[Ad Initium]

I wonder if animals besides humans believe in a God or Gods or have any superstition. As far as I know some animals like primates have a primitive form of culture, dolphins are pretty smart, elephants return to the same spot where one of their own died so I guess it's not completely impossible for them to have superstition or some sort of belief. Has there been any research about it?

You ask: God / Superstition / Culture

To answer the God bit ... we have no way to know, ... unless we can communicate with animals. And yes, we have been able to communicate with animals. Scientist have been trying to communicate with dolphins and similars roaming around in the ocean's for years, ... but dolphin and whale language is still ruff guessing for us. SImply because we do not live in the same envioronment as they do, so for starters our frame of reference will be different, and as such any language that spawns from that accordingly. I so logically assume with no scientific backing, to a degree.
How can I be sure? Suppose you tell me you are a Christian and you believe in a God. How am I suppose to believe that is true? I can not look into your mind. For all I know you are lying you head off and you do not believe in a God, ... you are simply trying to trick me.
If looking into the mind and believes of another human being is already that difficult, ... then it'll be more problematic for me to look into the mind of an animal, ... would it not?

We have been able to communicate with some great apes. Koko ( http://www.koko.org ) is a female lowland gorilla of approximately 39 years old. She has been taught American sign language. But asking her if she believes in a God or creator will be pointless. She has been brought up by humans, and as such her whole frame of reference will be tainted for this question, to be presented to her, to be unbiased.

But make no mistake .... this female lowland gorilla Koko, has shown traits of humanity that you wouldnt believe. She know's love and hurt, she understands empathy. She once had a kitten, that sadly got killed, ... and when they asked her about it many many years later, ... she signed in american sign language that she still misses her pet kitten.

For pure scientific matter, ... Koko would be a tainted subject on the matter of God, ... being one of the few animals (great ape) we can talk too, because she was raised by humans, ... BUT the mere fact that here we have an animal we CAN talk too, ... should make you wonder about the correctness of any literature of any believe. Bible, Quran, Tora, Mahabharatta.

We humans are NOT the only sentient being on this planet.

------------------------------------
Your question about culture:

Define culture ...

It is a touchy subject. For years many people believed Neanderthals were a dumb human form of live ... not as smart as homo sapiens, ... or in their case still Cro Magnon man. But evidence from later finding show that once Neanderthals started intermixing with Cro Magnon, ... they started using symbols Cro Magnon did. Cro Magnon was the first human to show signs of art and such. It may simply have been that Neanderthal was copying Cro Magnon inventions, ... and they did not understand the art Cro Magnon put on their spears and such, .... but then again ... at what point is culture culture? Where Cro Magnon unique, in their style of social interaction ... and did their art show the first true sence of culture? Can we debunk Neaderthal that easy, ... that for thousands of years they showed no sence of art, and thus had no culture?

Define culture ...

If culture is simply ... things learned by a specific group of beings, ... and passed on, ... and shared, ... then in that meaning some animals do have culture.

Chimps at various locations have shown to have skills that are only specific to their group. Chimps know how to eat ants from ant hills, by bending and breaking sticks. There are some nuts that some Chimp groups have learned to break and some other groups have not. A learned skill? Yes, a learned skill. As such you may argue that the Chimps that have not learned the specific way to crack these specific nuts, have a different culture then the Chimps that have learned that skill.

Does nut-cracking ability define culture for you?

Some animals in the sea may be just as smart as we are, ... but we have a hard time of knowing that. ... Why? ... Because they live in a different environment. Dolphins and Whales do not have and use limbs to communicate. Does the fact they have no limbs suggest they can not have a culture? No ... it does not ... Scientists have already found out their are various dialects amongst whales. Does having that ability (having dialect) amongst animals suggest they can have a culture?

We do not know ... ... yet.

-----

Define culture ....

IMHO ... to have a religion .... the way we humans have ... you need to have culture. How can we be sure animals have no religion, ... if we can not talk to them whitin their own specific environment?

-----------------

Female lowland Gorilla Koko, learns a new sign: "butterfly"


Now ... to anyone .... bring you frecking Bible ... and show me the text where it says we are the only sentient beings on this planet.

 

[kenandkids]

I think it would not be good to equate mourning or feelings of respect with religion. Religion is an imposed state of concept, elephants and other animals show nothing like this in action. I do believe that they are more intelligent than most believe and have no qualms about declaring them to be "thinking" creatures. As such, it is not a stretch to assume that they mourn their dead and might even have recognition their own mortality. None of this indicates a religion. There is no evidence that young animals like elephants are "instructed" to behave in a grieving or respectful manner.

 

[lrkun]

you don`t know what tetropods and cephalopods are?
i can do better then a link, i can just tell you.

Tetropods = four limbed land animals.

Cephalopods = tentacled mollusks including Octopi, squid and cuttlefish.

Thanks. I'm not familiar with those terms. Now, I am thanks to you.

 

[kenandkids]

Female lowland Gorilla Koko, learns a new sign: "butterfly"


Now ... to anyone .... bring you frecking Bible ... and show me the text where it says we are the only sentient beings on this planet.

I'll see your Koko and raise you a Michael.

 

[Ad Initium]

I am sorry you holding a dead card ... still ... I show empathy.

Ad Initium Luvs Kenandkids.

You are so right to point that out ... If anything ... Michael telling about his past is all the evidence we need ... against the figure image of a God. Not so much of the horror of what this Gorilla tells us (may Michael rest in peace) ... but that it shows ... what being a sentient being means!

It simply means ... To fully comprehend the world around you.

We .... Homo Destructo .... are not unique in that matter.

 

[Andiferous]

Thing is, our religion is tailored to fit. Most of the gods we worship are humans, after all. We tend to be very people centric.

To interpret behaviour among other species by a human ruler stick is a form of anthropomorphizing and holding them to our standards and biases. (think someone used that term before - I can't remember). Chimps will grimace or antagonize by baring teeth in something like a big smile, but make no mistake, they are not happy when doing so. To study animal behaviour by comparing incompatible species to ourselves wields little useful knowledge.

We can theorise the possibility of religion among other species but as an abstract concept, it's pretty much impossible to know without some kind of communication (or at the very least, true similarity with that species, like with Neanderthal). I'm inclined to think that hierarchy is a common concept in the animal kingdom, as is social bonding; and these two are somewhat foundational for religion. So yes, I think when animals can think abstractly, they can have religion as a matter of course.

I mentioned Neanderthal because to the best of my knowledge, they show the most evidence of religion by human standards, and it would be a bit funny to picture Adam as a Neanderthal.