Differences between races and / or cultures

[Worldquest]

Which cultures do you like the most? Which ones don't you like that much?

Have you noticed any differences between how the cultures & races behave or think, or not?

Which cultures do you get on with the most / least?

Which countries are the best / worst?

Which lifestyles do you prefer? Mediterranean / latin, arab / middle east, african, asian, northern european?

 

[nasher168]

The only time I have ever experienced another culture has been on holiday, and even then, they have all been to other western cultures- France, Australia, the US, Germany etc. and so were all fairly similar, with a few differences.
However, from the brief insights I have had, I would say that Germany has a very nice overall feeling.
And the public toilets actually work most of the time, which is another bonus.

 

[Squawk]

Don't make the mistake of mistaking race for culture. Race is, at best, poorly defined.

As for which cultures, much to like about many cultures, much to hate about the same cultures. I particularly like the Australian laid back and relax mentality, the carefree existence. Then again for productivity it sucks, so you head to Japan for a real work ethic. That of course has other implications.

I doubt I can find a single culture in the world about which I can't find something to like, and equally, something I don't.

 

[Worldquest]

Personally, my favourite culture is spanish, latin in general, italian, greek, mediterranean. I'm spanish myself.

In these cultures, everything seems to be just right. People have a love of food, art, music, and culture in general, and people are more sensual. Latin based languages are extremely expressive. The people tend to be more easy going, not so uptight as northern europeans, not so into the whole PC rubbish that unfortunately northern europeans are a bit more prone to following. Men are men and women are women. Kids and old people are respected. It's religious enough to add to the 'interestingness" of the culture but without being so strict. A better pace of life.

People are warm, and interested in other people, and are very friendly, to the point of maybe sometimes coming across as naive to northern europeans although that's not the case. And the language reflects all of this type of stuff, (for example, the phrase "you [english, or whatever]" is usually meant in a friendly way but in the english language, saying "you [whatever]" is regared as being insulting or patronising). In these cultures there's less hostile sarcasm, and less searching for hostile meaning in other peoples' words, they trust that you mean well. And you don't have to constantly spell things out to others when having conversations, they usually know what you mean. People generalise a lot to make their point and others are ok with it.

And black folk are usually very intuitive about that aswell, which is why I generally get along with them. And also in these cultures there's a great sense of pride. I often wonder why the english still have such a sense of guilt over slavery, and sometimes they hesitate to even say the word "black". (I'm generalising, this is what we do). I was watching a tv programme from Spain a while back, and the presenter made a joke about one of the band members (he's black), and everyone laughed and so did he. In England there would be an outcry.

 

[MRaverz]

They're all the same, we're all human.

 

[Worldquest]

Absolutely not. Of course they're not the same. The whole idea od culture is about living a certain way, thinking a certain way, and being from one culture and in living in another there's no doubt about it, I see it all the time. You don't even have to be from one and in live in another to know this because it's obvious, that's what's culture is about, because as long as people live in different parts of the world, you get different cultures. It's simplistic to just say we're all the same when we're not.

 

[Prolescum]

We are all the same.

 

[nasher168]

I would differ there. To a non-human civilisation, they would probably seem almost indistinguishable, but to us there are some dramatic differences.

 

[Prolescum]

Yes, we dress differently, treat women differently, eat manioc, flush nostrils, smoke tobacco, or imbibe alcohol from different tumblers but we only do it because we 'belong' or were born within an invented border, when we all secretly know we're just the bloody same with the same requirements of distraction, sexual reproduction and deep thought in varying degrees of preference. Cultural differences are paper-thin and don't really mean that much, are blown out of all proportion by our own fears of the 'other', and exacerbated by our media. Everyone else is 'Emmanuel Goldstein', when in reality they're just Bob or Mahomet or Chandra or Sven. Like you and I.

 

[5810Singer]

@Worldquest

My ex gf Rosa was from Valencia.

She's sexually repressed, and shy about her body to extraordinary extremes,...she won't even look at her naked body in the mirror, this is a consequence of her repressive Catholic upbringing.

She's a school-teacher, very obsessive about having everything ordered, and clean. She get's nauseous if she's late for appointments.

In her own words "people from Valencia sound like machine guns when they talk,...they just rattle as fast as possible, it's not pretty."

Having been born in 1969 Rosa just caught the end of Franco's dictatorship (I'll come back to Franco in a moment), and as a consequence she sees religion as a tool to repress people, she especially hates Catholicism.

To quote Rosa on the subject of sexual politics in Spain: "Things are much more equal than they used to be, that's because there's been a big influence on us from Britain, and other northern european countries, but typical Spanish men are sexist pigs, and usually racist too."



So that's my Spanish ex-girlfriends take on Spain and the Spanish,....I guess it just goes to show, huh?



Now,....General Franco....
Putting it bluntly I'm disinclined to listen to you say "southern europeans are more laid-back, northen europeans are hung up on political correctness...",...when you come from a country that was a Catholic-fascist dictatorship from before WW2, until Franco's death in 1975.

As a Spaniard you are undoubtedly aware of the forensic investigators, police, archaeologists, and historians who are engaged in various places in Spain in exhuming the bodies of "the disappeared" citizens who were murdered by Franco's regime.



I've known a few Spanish people over the years, most of them women, and all of them are UK residents now because they much prefer the atmosphere and culture in Britain,...apparently it's less repressive,...go figure.

 

[Worldquest]

Singer -

That's absolutely right, not only do we have many cultures, but within each one we have a lot of variation. According to our personalities, experiences, upbringing and so on, we take to some aspects of the culture that we're in more than to others, although either way we're aware of them since they're there. That's why, although many stereotypes and generalisations are based on reality, not everyone in a culture fits it in every single way.

 

[5810Singer]

Singer -

That's absolutely right, not only do we have many cultures, but within each one we have a lot of variation. According to our personalities, experiences, upbringing and so on, we take to some aspects of the culture that we're in more than to others, although either way we're aware of them since they're there. That's why, although many stereotypes and generalisations are based on reality, not everyone in a culture fits it in every single way.

Or in other words,...no matter how laughably fallacious and over-generalised your statements are, you will always claim to be in the right about them.

If you were as laid-back and free-thinking as you claim to be, then you would have the capacity to admit your errors.

 

[MRaverz]

Absolutely not. Of course they're not the same. The whole idea od culture is about living a certain way, thinking a certain way, and being from one culture and in living in another there's no doubt about it, I see it all the time. You don't even have to be from one and in live in another to know this because it's obvious, that's what's culture is about, because as long as people live in different parts of the world, you get different cultures. It's simplistic to just say we're all the same when we're not.

You miss my point, luckily Prolescum and nasher didn't.

There are mild variations everywhere, but you can't class a culture under anything more than a rough description. There are far too many overlaps and at the core, it's the same species looking to achieve the same things through very similar methods.

I would argue that culture as the majority believe in it, is mostly illusionary. We notice the differences, and ignore the similarities. It happens all the time. For example, chimpanzees are especially similar to humans - yet when you look at one, you notice what is different. The hair, the method of walking, the language. Yet you miss the similarities, the same proteins and genes used to product the hair, the two arms/two legs and the ability to communicate to some level.

The same is true for different cultures, yet at a smaller level. Concentrating on these minor differences, makes them a bigger deal than they actually are and this leads to people believing that there are actually vast differences between us.

I think there is as much or more difference between mine and your families than there is between two differing cultures. Yet we wouldn't class ourselves as being that different.

 

[Gnug215]

Personally, my favourite culture is spanish, latin in general, italian, greek, mediterranean. I'm spanish myself.

In these cultures, everything seems to be just right. People have a love of food, art, music, and culture in general, and people are more sensual. Latin based languages are extremely expressive. The people tend to be more easy going, not so uptight as northern europeans, not so into the whole PC rubbish that unfortunately northern europeans are a bit more prone to following.

Well, I guess I'm Northern European (NE). I don't agree with most of the generalizations you made about NE's. I wouldn't say NE's are uptight as a general rule, but the work ethic seems more strict, and so is socializing. People here are often considered "cool" instead of "warm", but that's only until you get under their skin. So basically, Southern Europeans (SE) seem warm, but I feel that "warmth" as being a superficial thing.
I'm not sure how PC the NE's are, since, as you say, they are also more ironic. NE's do seem a LOT more ironic, but I view that as a virtue.
What are some examples of "PC rubbish", if I may ask?

Men are men and women are women.

This sounds awfully outdated to me (and no, this isn't some PC thing), but perhaps you could explain closer what that means?

Kids and old people are respected.

Respect from status, age or whatever has never been deserved if you ask me, and I don't like the cultural notion that this should be the case. People, of all status, ages, etc., should be respected if they have made themselves deserving of respect.

It's religious enough to add to the 'interestingness" of the culture but without being so strict. A better pace of life.

We have plenty of religious/spiritual people here, but it's less institutionalized, which I think is great - or rather, I think institutionalized and traditionalize religion is terrible.
And a better pace of life? Becuase of religion, or...?

People are warm, and interested in other people, and are very friendly, to the point of maybe sometimes coming across as naive to northern europeans although that's not the case.

I've never attributed this kind of thing to SE's being naive, but just a result of the "open/warm" manner in which SE's conduct themselves socially. Personally, I feel that kind of behavior is invasie, affected, bordering fake. It makes me genuinely uncomfortable and also I want to distance myself from such a person, who I feel does not respect my boundaries.

And the language reflects all of this type of stuff, (for example, the phrase "you [english, or whatever]" is usually meant in a friendly way but in the english language, saying "you [whatever]" is regared as being insulting or patronising).

No idea what you mean here, could you specifcy/elaborate?

In these cultures there's less hostile sarcasm, and less searching for hostile meaning in other peoples' words, they trust that you mean well.

I find that sarcam and irony is often a social lubricant, and also a way in which you can say something that might not be all that comfortable in a way that isn't harsh. Sure, it may take some practice, some interpretation, but if you're used to it, it's hardly a problem - only for the outsider. (I've often noticed the total lack of sarcasm and irony in other cultures, and I find that culture to be missing something pivotal.)

The SE cultures are often said to be "passionate", shown among other in how much they argue loudly, with much yelling and gesturing. This kind of thing is, in my opinion, seems downright primitive, and I regard irony and sarcasm as highly advanced or complex linguistic/social phenomena.

And you don't have to constantly spell things out to others when having conversations, they usually know what you mean. People generalise a lot to make their point and others are ok with it.

I can't say I agree with that, but I haven't experienced the opposite myself.
Perhaps you've experienced this on the Internet? - Which would be understandable, because a lot of subtlety is lost in written communication.

And black folk are usually very intuitive about that aswell, which is why I generally get along with them.

Not sure what to make of this. "Black folk" certainly aren't a homogenous cultural group.
Incidentally, your OP mentions race, and I'd like to write that off entirely, because you'll see that people of other "race" that are adopted (we have many of those here in NE) are usually culturally identical to the rest of us, so race clearly doesn't play a part.

And also in these cultures there's a great sense of pride.

And pride is a good thing, because...?

I have never viewed pride as a virtue (the 7 deadly sins even include it).

I often wonder why the english still have such a sense of guilt over slavery, and sometimes they hesitate to even say the word "black".

Because slavery was a really, really nasty thing, and a blemish on the culture and history of England and other NE countries?
Hesitation with the word "black" could perhaps be an example of the PC thing mentioned earlier, but there are some entirely practical reasons, too, including the fact that blacks (and others) have themselves (in some cases) asked for a new label.
A term used in a society can in time evolve into a derogatory one, and in those cases it's natural for the society at large to move away from such a term. The ones that may still use it are perhaps the more racist elements in a society, and the rest of society may also wish to distance themselves from such elements.

 

[Worldquest]

Singer -

What error? That cultures exist?



MRaverz -

I know that there are similarities between cultures. There are similarities, and differences.



Gnug -

It's ok that you don't agree with my generalisations about northern europeans, but you've made a few of your own, and I don't have a problem with that, and I may even agree with some or even most of them. I suspect that if I said "generalisations about northern europeans can be made" and then went on to list some positive ones, it would change the discussion. You say that the southern european warmth seems superficial, and I myself don't like superficiality, but it's totally genuine and it probably seems unbelieveable that people could genuinely be that way. Examples of PC, well it's a constant theme, you hear about it all the time in the papers and on tv. Have you heard the term "elf n safety?" where does that term originate from? And "thought shower" instead of brainstorm, and police being given a list of words they can't use anymore in case it offends.

When I say men are men and women are women, what I mean is that men don't try to be like women and women don't try to be like men.

Although you may disagree with the idea, that old age is respected more in southern european (and for that matter, many other) cultures is a pretty well known fact. I agree that people should be worthy of respect, but when you are a certain age or there's a certain age gap between you and someone older than you, a certain level of respect should be assumed, unless that person proves themselves unworthy. They should be given the benefit of the doubt. It doesn't seem right at all for someone to be rude (I exclude friendly joking) to someone considerably older. Respect your elders by default unless they show that they don't deserve it. But above all, respect people in general by default.

I don't think that the parades that you get in Spain or Italy are terrible. They're interesting, fun, quirky. In the context of what I said before, I'm actually really referring to the bells and whistles that come with religion, the traditions, parades in villages, that kind of thing. If those things weren't religious it would still be just as interesting. I just mean that it's good to see people come together and enjoy quirky things.


I respect your boundaries, although I'd say that your feeling that the SE warmth comes across as invasive and almost fake is due to your own preference and I don't judge you for that at all because it's perfectly natural.Where I come from, it is extremely common for people who have just met or who interact in passing (in fact anyone) to call each other "my boy/ girl". In english that sounds so weird, but in spanish it sounds extremely friendly, it's like saying "me old mate". Also, it's common even for men to say to each other "many hugs / a strong hug" when saying goodbye. You don't really get that in english and actually I think language and culture are very closely tied.

(I'm assuming you're english If you're not, it doesn't matter) : "You english people are..." - how does that phrase make you feel? Patronized? It wouldn't surprise me. In english, it comes across as almost accusative, or like a criticism is about to be made. Even if I said "You english people are nice", it wouldn't sound quite right. It has a certain something to it that comes off as odd. But in spanish,
it's not a problem. I don't know if that explains it.


I agree that sarcasm and irony are useful, and can be great in conversation. This is something that the english based cultures have which I love and I've taken to it. What I meant before is that it is sometimes used in a nonfriendly way.

It's interesting that you consider the SE hand gestures, talking loudly and so on as primitive and the NE way as advanced (perhaps mpore civilized). My very slight feeling of being insulted by that is overwhelmed by how interesting I find it, and I'm glad you mentioned it, and by the way I'm not insulted by you as a person for saying it and you and I seem to get on well here so I'm not having a go at you
at all. What can be considered low in one culture can be considered civilized in another, although I myself see the benefits in both. I use hand gestures myself a lot, I'm very animated in conversation, I often change my tone, and I love to dramatise my speech, almost like it's a performance. I'm being spanish, but in english, if you see what I mean. I regard it as fun, expressive and alive.

If you heard me and my mum talking, sometimes you'd think we're arguing. For example, if we're both talking about something we both don't like, we might shout at each other. But we're not shouting at each other, one person is expressing how they feel about a third party to the other. Black people (I mean people from those countries) do it too and that's why sometimes they also come off as harsh, but it's the same thing. It's just the culture, everyone does it differently and there's no overall better or worse way, and both are civilized but you just need to get it, understand it.

Also remember that the greeks and romans (SE) are regarded highly as civilizations, and language reflects (or is reflected by?) culture, and english is heavily influenced by latin, and to an extent, greek. Also, words in english which have latin roots, when you translate them, you see that their latin meaning sounds extremely simple. And in spanish, what seem like simple words actually carry a lot of sematic baggage / connotations which aren't immediately apparent, and that kind of thing I think is very sophisticated. In english things tend to get spelled out, blatantly, exactly (otherwise it's considered being vague and unsure and wishy washy) whereas in spanish, the intended meaning is understood. In fact, often in spanish, people don't even finish their sentences and the other person knows exactly what they're getting at. This is partly because the words in the language carry more meaning than in english, they have a certain potency which I can't easily explain. And of course it is considered a sign of high education to learn latin in order to understand english in a deeper way.

I'm not saying one way is better or worse as they both have advantages and to be honest it would be hard to have a language that does it all, I'm just explaining that what seems primitive isn't. And in spanish (and probably italian and french too) the common words for certain things are the equaivalent of the "posh" version in english. For example, "renunciar" means to give up, and "renunciar" is practically "renounce", which could be considered more refined that just saying to give up. And in spanish, using phrases like "in which", "under which", is normal, whereas in english most people avoid talking like that because it's considered "posh". And you have the polite forms of address aswell as familiar ones. It could be argued that the english are generally less well spoken. Having said that, in spanish it is quite normal to use double negatives.

By the way I'm using language to illustrate differences in culture. And whereas in english / england it's considered civilized to be subtle and reserved, in latin countries it is considered civilized to just express yourself. Even swearing isn't frowned upon that much (it rarely gets bleeped out on tv), and it's not unusual to hear someone speak very eloquently one minute, then swear when they feel like it. One could argue that the english way is very anal, and you could argue that the latin way is coarse, it just depends how you choose to see it. I judge it by the intensions of the person and how the culture regards it. Another example, in african or west indian countries, people shout and yell and cry loudly and openly at funerals and even become melodramatic, and in an island in the pacific (I can't remember which) it's normal to force yourself to cry when someone leaves. These cultures place a lot of importance on getting it all out (which is good for you), and it can seem uncivilized and out of control but there's more to it than meets the eye, which I think makes it sophisticated.

As for racism, although there's racism everywhere, in spanish countries things are more easygoing and it's ok to just say what's on your mind without being considered racist. Example : I come from the Canary Islands, which belong to Spain. Recently I was watching a programme where the presenter was showing a brief clip of a documentary made in Spain about a town in one of the islands, which portrayed it in a very negative light. The presenter (and actually most people in the islands) were deeply offended, and at the end he called the programme makers "godos", which is a very offensive way of referring to spanish people (which many canary islands people, including me, don't consider themselves to be). He didn't mean to call all spanish people that word, he was just letting it all out. And this is acceptable. One major thing to remember about how different cultures think is that values and priorities differ, and things are interpreted differently, and people sometimes mean things differently. What is considered racist in one culture is considered totally ok in another, and not racist at all.

Slavery was a very bad thing I know, but it (meaning the slavery that we generally refer to ie black africans taken to the americas a few hundred years ago) is over. It's only a blemish on your culture if you have hangups about it, and the english unfortunately have let it remain in their national psyche. And actually black people mostly refer to themselves as black, because they're black. If the word "black" evolves a derogatory meaning in a particular culture, that's only because enough people in that culture have a hangup about it. In latin countries, there's no such thing. There are songs about "that black girl", "the black man", blackity black, no problem.

I was watching one of those reality dating shows a few months back, and a hispanic guy referred to the girl (the protagonist of the show) as "mi negrita". Literally, that means "my little black girl / female / woman". She went mad. In english, that phrase can have negative hints to it (again, due to enough people seeing it that way) but, as he explained as he apologised to her, in spanish it is extremely affectionate. It is as unracist as you can get. Spanish and latin people have absolutely no hangups about looking a black person in the face and referring to the fact that they're black.

We're not afraid of black people and feel no guilt. I have a black friend and on more than one occasion I've rubbed his arm and said "look at you, all brown" (in a very friendly way) and he takes it very well. I used to go out with a black girl and sometimes when we were talking I'd stop and say "oh my god..." she'd say "what?", then I'd say "you're blaaaack!", and we'd laugh. Great fun all round, no racism, just a good laugh. Whereas I cringe whenever I hear an english person say "erm..you know, er, black" or "er, bl..I mean coloured". It makes them look ridiculous.

 

[Baranduin]

Personally, my favourite culture is spanish, latin in general, italian, greek, mediterranean. I'm spanish myself.

Here's another Spaniard. A "godo", for you.

Hell, man, what a mess... So much typical topics... typical Spanish, I guess.

I've reordered the excerpts, if you don't mind. At the end I'll answer Singer and Gnug.


Non-differences:

In these cultures, everything seems to be just right. People have a love of food, art, music, and culture in general, and people are more sensual.

Uh, people love food, art, music and culture 'everywhere'.

It's religious enough to add to the 'interestingness" of the culture but without being so strict. A better pace of life.

And to owe 320 million euros to the Church while the state is in crisis so the unemployment fees have to be reduced. Religion - namely, the Catholic Church - is one of the cancers of the Spanish society, and one of the main reasons of division between our two Spains. I'd rather prefer to pass without the circus of the Conference of Bishops excommunicating the parliament in full as they recently did, or Tomà¡s Moro Institute denouncing Javier Krahe because of a video (how to cook a christ) recorded thirty freaking years ago...

People are warm, and interested in other people, and are very friendly, to the point of maybe sometimes coming across as naive to northern europeans although that's not the case.

No, they're not. Again, this is one of the features that changes a lot depending on where you are. Northern Spaniards won't call you "friend" just the second time you met them; southern ones - traditionally - will.

Indeed, I'd rather prefer the cold catalonians to the warmer andalucians in that regard. You can evaluate how much they trust you and how much you can trust them. A very "european" feature.

And the warm people is going to receive you with depends a lot of where you are from. You from Spain? Yes, come in! Moor? Get the hell out of here. This distinction, of course, is not exclusive of Spain - think in US and mexico.

In these cultures there's less hostile sarcasm, and less searching for hostile meaning in other peoples' words, they trust that you mean well.

Ever heard about Quevedo? Also, is this sarcastic enough?


Latin Languages vs English:

Latin based languages are extremely expressive.

They have some ways to express themselves that other languages lack. Other languages have means that Spanish - or romance languages - haven't.

I respect your boundaries, although I'd say that your feeling that the SE warmth comes across as invasive and almost fake is due to your own preference and I don't judge you for that at all because it's perfectly natural.

I've met too many invasive, warm-faking spaniards to support this.

Where I come from, it is extremely common for people who have just met or who interact in passing (in fact anyone) to call each other "my boy/ girl". In english that sounds so weird, but in spanish it sounds extremely friendly, it's like saying "me old mate". Also, it's common even for men to say to each other "many hugs / a strong hug" when saying goodbye. You don't really get that in english and actually I think language and culture are very closely tied.

Tip: don't translate literally. The fact that you'll never say "my leg" but "the leg" doesn't mean you think your leg is less "yours".

And the language reflects all of this type of stuff, (for example, the phrase "you [english, or whatever]" is usually meant in a friendly way but in the english language, saying "you [whatever]" is regared as being insulting or patronising).

(I'm assuming you're english If you're not, it doesn't matter) : "You english people are..." - how does that phrase make you feel? Patronized? It wouldn't surprise me. In english, it comes across as almost accusative, or like a criticism is about to be made. Even if I said "You english people are nice", it wouldn't sound quite right. It has a certain something to it that comes off as odd. But in spanish, it's not a problem. I don't know if that explains it.

I'm having a problem (a very big one) trying to understand what you are translating with "you english people". For every expression I come accross, I find a way to make it peyorative just changing the context. Could you type the sentence in Spanish (if no one objects)?

And you don't have to constantly spell things out to others when having conversations, they usually know what you mean. People generalise a lot to make their point and others are ok with it.

Incomplete sentences. They also have them.

Yes, we usually generalize and everyone understands that there are many exceptions. No true catalonian would ever be offended because you say that all of them are greedy, that all castillians are verbose, or aragonesses are stubborn. And never trust a Gallician: you'll never know if they go up or down. We play a lot with stereotypes.

Now, replace "catalonian" with "moor" or "romanian". Ah, It's a lot different now, isn't it? Now that's a generalization
(another tip: translate "negro" like "negruzo". Insulting enough?)

And in spanish, what seem like simple words actually carry a lot of sematic baggage / connotations which aren't immediately apparent, and that kind of thing I think is very sophisticated. In english things tend to get spelled out, blatantly, exactly (otherwise it's considered being vague and unsure and wishy washy) whereas in spanish, the intended meaning is understood.

Like the verb "to be" (in spanish ser/estar), "to have" (haber/tener), make, take... (too many possible translations for these last two). Vague words: they also have them.

In fact, often in spanish, people don't even finish their sentences and the other person knows exactly what they're getting at.

That's an annoying feature common in Southern Spain, and in some central zones. My mother speaks that way. And no, the other person doesn't know exactly what they're getting at. You guess it from the context - if you're lucky and there's context enough. "It's over there, on the thingy, behind the that, can you...?" is not a feature of the Spanish language, is a offence against the language. And you certainly won't see that in literature, unless all you read are books for teenagers.

This is partly because the words in the language carry more meaning than in english, they have a certain potency which I can't easily explain. And of course it is considered a sign of high education to learn latin in order to understand english in a deeper way.

No, this is because people is lazy when speaking. You cannot explain it because that "special power" doesn't exist.

And no, people doesn't learn latin in order to understand english in a deeper way, and certainly doing so would be ridiculous (and stupid, because it wouldn't help at all).

And in spanish (and probably italian and french too) the common words for certain things are the equaivalent of the "posh" version in english. For example, "renunciar" means to give up, and "renunciar" is practically "renounce", which could be considered more refined that just saying to give up.

Yeah, (specially formal) english borrowed a lot from French and Latin, so the forms they use resemble those of latin - and since Spanish is a romance language, they resemble to the spanish forms too! How fantastic! Your point?

And in spanish, using phrases like "in which", "under which", is normal, whereas in english most people avoid talking like that because it's considered "posh".

Yeah, because it's a latin structure. Y'know, to avoid to end the sentence with preposition. English moves the preposition to the end and usually drops the relative (and uses "where" instead of "in which", as correct Spanish uses "donde" instead of "en que"). Both structures are analogous, so I don't even see you're point here - they're the same, but expressed in a different order...

And you have the polite forms of address aswell as familiar ones.

Whose usage varies widely from region to region - in some places the familiar is not used at all, and in most places the extinct form is the formal one. Their meaning and the situation where they are used are very different in some regions, and using the formal form where the informal one is expected is quite insulting.

Indeed, they're "formal", but not necessarily "polite". Some of our best insults are made using formal forms and tons of sarcasm.

It could be argued that the english are generally less well spoken. Having said that, in spanish it is quite normal to use double negatives.

The use of double negatives is not "normal" but normative. Different languages, different grammars, different features.

We are also pro-drop, what do you read from there?

And whereas in english / england it's considered civilized to be subtle and reserved, in latin countries it is considered civilized to just express yourself.

Uh, no, hooligans are as uncivilized in Spain as they are in England, even when they're just expressing themselves...

Even swearing isn't frowned upon that much (it rarely gets bleeped out on tv), and it's not unusual to hear someone speak very eloquently one minute, then swear when they feel like it.

Hell, yes, we fucking swear, "shitting in god and the saints and the holy golden virgin-whore and ten". Oh, wait, english also have strong words. And people uses them!


Racism:

And black folk are usually very intuitive about that aswell, which is why I generally get along with them. And also in these cultures there's a great sense of pride. I often wonder why the english still have such a sense of guilt over slavery, and sometimes they hesitate to even say the word "black". (I'm generalising, this is what we do). I was watching a tv programme from Spain a while back, and the presenter made a joke about one of the band members (he's black), and everyone laughed and so did he. In England there would be an outcry.

Slavery was a very bad thing I know, but it (meaning the slavery that we generally refer to ie black africans taken to the americas a few hundred years ago) is over. It's only a blemish on your culture if you have hangups about it, and the english unfortunately have let it remain in their national psyche. And actually black people mostly refer to themselves as black, because they're black. If the word "black" evolves a derogatory meaning in a particular culture, that's only because enough people in that culture have a hangup about it. In latin countries, there's no such thing. There are songs about "that black girl", "the black man", blackity black, no problem.

Yes, we mixed with the black people we slaved, so "black" isn't insulting - we can later speak if you want about the racism in "yo soy aquel negrito" or "el negro no puede".

That's the reason when I see a racial reference in English to black people (or jews, or whatever), I translate it mentally as "moros" or "tanos" (moors, gipsies). That's what I perceive as an equivalent. We don't put the emphasis in race but in culture, but I don't think our share of bigotry be different of the one existing out there.

As for racism, although there's racism everywhere, in spanish countries things are more easygoing and it's ok to just say what's on your mind without being considered racist.

Unless you're romanian, muslim or gipsy. Or even "Sudaka" (basically, any non-US/Canadian american). Of course, that's more cultural than racial bigotry, but certainly not "easygoing".


---------------------------------------------------

My ex gf Rosa was from Valencia.

And my vision of Spain is perhaps closer to her vision than to the happy garden Wq has just depicted. However, what she depicted is also a stereotype. Just a few comments, if you accept my testimony.

She's sexually repressed, and shy about her body to extraordinary extremes,...she won't even look at her naked body in the mirror, this is a consequence of her repressive Catholic upbringing.

That's a consequence of the catholic upringing, not of being Spanish. Indeed, our consent age is the lowest one in Europe, and not because we're perverts, but because the high number of couples in their early teens in some -mostly/traditionally rural - regions. Well, not the lowest: Vatican's even lower :!!

She's a school-teacher, very obsessive about having everything ordered, and clean. She get's nauseous if she's late for appointments.

If something characterizes Spaniards, it's NOT punctuality....

Things are much more equal than they used to be, that's because there's been a big influence on us from Britain, and other northern european countries, but typical Spanish men are sexist pigs, and usually racist too.

Traditional people - including some right wingers, and not excluding women - are quite sexist. About racism, I've already spoken.

So that's my Spanish ex-girlfriends take on Spain and the Spanish,....I guess it just goes to show, huh?

She seems to have had a very bad experience here. I don't know her circumstances, so I cannot judge, but she has a very negative vision of Spain. There are a lot of negative points around here, but not all of them apply in every region. Please, don't generalize.

Putting it bluntly I'm disinclined to listen to you say "southern europeans are more laid-back, northen europeans are hung up on political correctness...",...when you come from a country that was a Catholic-fascist dictatorship from before WW2, until Franco's death in 1975.

The official term is "national-catholic".

As a Spaniard you are undoubtedly aware of the forensic investigators, police, archaeologists, and historians who are engaged in various places in Spain in exhuming the bodies of "the disappeared" citizens who were murdered by Franco's regime.

As a spaniard, I'm aware that every now and then someone finds a mass grave, usually from the times of the War, murdered during the war. They may have republican corpses, but there are also some "national" ones. Most of them are from 1936 (that's the beginning of the war).

From the mid-forties onward, victims of franquism were not put in common burials, but legally executed. I think the most recent one is from 1943, though I could be outdated in this.

There's a lot of political buzz about the issue - see the recent expulsion of Super-Garzà³n -, and the AMRH dismisses burials made by the republicans - it's not politically correct to say that the republicans also killed people, and it's indeed a political suicide. But that was a war: both sides killed people.

I'm not trivializing Franquism nor the Civil War, but criticizing the political manipulation that nowadays it's being done about that. I think that we should overcome it and go on, not get stuck in something that our grandpas did and most of the current population never met.
But of course, then we have the catalonian nationalists speaking about the times of Philip V, or the basque ones about when the romans invaded them...

I've known a few Spanish people over the years, most of them women, and all of them are UK residents now because they much prefer the atmosphere and culture in Britain,...apparently it's less repressive,...go figure.

I'm right now in a rural zone of the north coast, and I can understand them. But I wouldn't call "repressive" the years I spent in Barcelona Different regions, different backgrounds.

----

Men are men and women are women.

This sounds awfully outdated to me (and no, this isn't some PC thing), but perhaps you could explain closer what that means?

For most of the country, that's awfully outdated.

People are warm, and interested in other people, and are very friendly, to the point of maybe sometimes coming across as naive to northern europeans although that's not the case.

I've never attributed this kind of thing to SE's being naive, but just a result of the "open/warm" manner in which SE's conduct themselves socially. Personally, I feel that kind of behavior is invasie, affected, bordering fake. It makes me genuinely uncomfortable and also I want to distance myself from such a person, who I feel does not respect my boundaries.

Me too. And I'm not the only one around here that feels that way.

 

[5810Singer]

@Baranduin

Cheers mate.

Thank you for correcting some of my misapprehensions about Spanish society and history.

I'm aware that Rosa isn't a typical Spaniard either, and in a way that was very much my point,....TBH I don't really have any fixed view of the Spanish, I take people as they come. Which is why I couldn't accept the swingeing generalisations that Worldquest was making,....I assume he does it in order to provoke a reaction.

In closing,...the main thing I've learnt from the Spanish people I've known, and they've learnt from the British people they've known, is that British and Spanish people have a lot more in common than any of our national stereotypes would have us believe.

 

[Worldquest]

Baranduin -

Here's why your post is extremely weird :


Whenever I express my general personal preference towards latin languages and culture, you tell me that :

* It differs from region to region (which I know)
* It's not all a bowl of cherries (which I know)
* English is also expressive (which I know)
* Everyone loves art, music, culture etc (which I know)
* What I find interesting about the religious aspects of the culture are associated with bad things (which I know)
* Spanish people can also be sarcastic and fake (which I know)
* English people also use incomplete sentences (which I erm...)
* Sometimes our incomplete sentences aren't understood and it depends on how much context there is (which I know)
* Spanish people can also be racist (which I know)

And so on.

All of that is so obvious. With tens of millions of people, and many regions, of course not everyone is going to be identical. I was making a generalization, and a very valid one because there is such a thing as cultures, and national psyches. By talking about the different regions and your own personal preferences, you acknowledge this.

I have my preferences and all you're really doing is trying to criticize that by stating the obvious (listed above). But it doesn't change the fact that I've noticed differences between latin cultures and others, and that I have a preference. And that's my point. I'm not even sure what your point is, but I sense an undercurrent. Why not just say what's on your mind?



And in general, I can see that some people have a real problem with the fact that cultures do exist, and differences. Pointing out that there are also similarities doesn't alter that. It's like they're trying to paint a picture of a world where everyone is the same. Airbrushing out differences which do exist is a sign of uneasiness about the fact that they do. It strikes me as very anal and insecure, and PC.

I also notice the irony that on a forum where so many are quite happy to make their generalizations about religion and religious people, that making generalizations about culture is frowned upon. It's laughable. You observe, you generalize. I observe, I generalize. The difference is that I acknowledge that there are exceptions and that mine are generalizations. And whats more, I'm stating my cultural preference by highlighting the good aspects, the things that appeal to me. Telling me that there are exceptions is a subtle way of telling me that I shouldn't have a preference. But I do, and there are observable reasons.

 

[Baranduin]

All of that is so obvious. With tens of millions of people, and many regions, of course not everyone is going to be identical. I was making a generalization, and a very valid one because there is such a thing as cultures, and national psyches. By talking about the different regions and your own personal preferences, you acknowledge this.

You were overgeneralizing with the 'typical Spanish - caà±à­ y olé" stereotype so "from Despeà±aperros to Tarifa" - or perhaps a "former participant of Reality Show" one. You're using (part of) a description that most of the country is trying to forget that ever existed, or actively fighting against it, against getting associated with that every time Spain is mentioned. I certainly thank you for not mentioning bullfighting, faralaes, and April Festival, though these are pretty much the only things you've forgotten to add.

I have my preferences and all you're really doing is trying to criticize that by stating the obvious (listed above). But it doesn't change the fact that I've noticed differences between latin cultures and others, and that I have a preference. And that's my point. I'm not even sure what your point is, but I sense an undercurrent. Why not just say what's on your mind?

There are differences; no one is going to deny that. We have different governments, with different laws, demographics, natural resources, history... When someone here posted about Teresa Forcades and her antivax nonsense a while ago, I dismissed it: she is a non-issue here, since her audience is not receptive (we have, perhaps, still too close the post-war period, when vaccines stopped being available for a while and "benign" diseases began killing people - again). She was being ridiculous, fitting indeed the stereotype of a excessively worried nun, and when she appeared in TV was for people to make fun on her; nothing like Jenny McCarthy and her appealing to the heart.
Or take our creationists - César Vidal, Juan Manuel de Prada..., all of them OECs... I think -, who are laughed even by the right wing press (you all know how Lascaux disproves evolution, aren't you?). Indeed this very morning two elderly women who knocked my door - Jehova's Witnesses - tried to convince me about this very thing. The truth is: the catholic church has being directing our educative system during 40 years, and they've being spreading evolution there and from the pulpit so well that most (religious and semireligious) people buys theistic evolution - (nearly) never direct creation. Whether the C. Church could change their doctrine in the next decades is a different problem (and probably irrelevant, since we already have public schools), but for the time being, we don't have to worry about YECs and OECs. Hell, sometimes our politicians even try to hide they're religious!
And as for politics, heck, we have the dubious honor of being the only western democratic country whose government initiated a dirty war (bietan jarrai) in the last quarter of the twentieth century, and fucked it up torturing the wrong (and innocent) persons! And there's still people defending that and calling you fascist if you dare to mention something so shameful for the socialist party!
[I've taken these three examples because they've already being mentioned here, and they are easily understandable]


So yes, there are differences. But you were not arguing about political, historical, demographical differences. You were arguing that we - in general - have a different behavior than other, northern, Europeans (warmer, still, you haven't said, for whom), having consequences in the language - indeed, this seems to be your main point; I'm not sure how you conciliate that with the existence and features of Euskera -, causes in our psyches (,¿?), and so on.
Here's another view: We are all equal, and what makes ethnicities different are the political, historical, demographical reasons. I've never being in the UK, but I'm sure someone living in London is more like someone living in Madrid than someone from a deep, rural village in their respective countries. Persons are the same everywhere you go, and the ratio "niceness against arseness by square kilometer" is constant. It's the environment what causes those differences.

And in general, I can see that some people have a real problem with the fact that cultures do exist, and differences.

And that's a point I can agree with. And that's the reason you've being painting a caricature that is insulting and unrealistic. Catalonians are not like Andalusians. Nor like basques. And there are Andalusians and Andalusians. Are any of those groups less "spanish" than any of the others? Are Canarians less "spanish" than Castilians? Are people from the big cities different from the people in rural areas (because that's a distinction even more important than which province you are from)? You've fallen in the nationalistic fallacy - oh, so common around here, that I could even concede that that's a spanish trait... well, not really, it's also out there. To support your "nation", you've airbrushed the differences between its constituents.

Pointing out that there are also similarities doesn't alter that. It's like they're trying to paint a picture of a world where everyone is the same. Airbrushing out differences which do exist is a sign of uneasiness about the fact that they do. It strikes me as very anal and insecure, and PC.

Again, that mistake is entirely yours, not theirs(/ours?).

Cheers mate.

Thank you for correcting some of my misapprehensions about Spanish society and history.

Yeps, you're welcome.

In closing,...the main thing I've learnt from the Spanish people I've known, and they've learnt from the British people they've known, is that British and Spanish people have a lot more in common than any of our national stereotypes would have us believe.

Hmm, If my opinion is correct, I'm sorry to tell you that you have a biased sample: people who travels is people that usually don't believe in differences in first place, and the more you travel the less (real) differences you see. So count my vote as supporting your point. I've been testing both points for a while (the one of people traveling, and the one of having things in common), so I'll let you know if I find any place so particular that disproves them :lol:

Which is why I couldn't accept the swingeing generalisations that Worldquest was making,....I assume he does it in order to provoke a reaction.

I actually think he actually believes what he is saying. It's a widespread vision - mostly in monolingual areas -, though I wouldn't call it majoritarian in any sense. You can also hear or read it in the media, normally from "spanish nationalists" and conservatives (both groups overlap, but they're not the same at all) - not serious politicians, though that's an oxymoron -, and in our literature. That's right, some people around here is proud of fitting to a stereotype and makes efforts to fit in the so called "Spanish is different" (in English in the original).

It's our favorite fallacy to invoke: our politicians can do things wrong, acting in the contrary direction to anyone else, as jerks, or even illegally, and nothing matters, because, y'know, "Spanish is different"...

And of course, it's the quicker method to insult those who are (allegedly) different - that is, all the normal people. And specially bilingual people, that are of course automatically excluded - no true Spaniard has a native language other than Spanish.

[Note for Wq: as you can see, I don't deny we have our particular phenomena. But you can see it happens in some regions, in some people, and in a varying range of intensities. No need of generalizations. And if you're really interested in learning their particularities, may I suggest to look into the original sources or ask for concrete details? I'm sure there's a infinite number of details for your confirmation bias to work, so it'd be impractical to make such a long list. Perhaps traveling would help, too]

 

[Prolescum]

And in general, I can see that some people have a real problem with the fact that cultures do exist, and differences. Pointing out that there are also similarities doesn't alter that. It's like they're trying to paint a picture of a world where everyone is the same. Airbrushing out differences which do exist is a sign of uneasiness about the fact that they do. It strikes me as very anal and insecure, and PC.

Actually, the real problem is people like you who go out of their way to emphasize the differences between people and perpetuate vague and irrelevant cultural distinctions as virtues, as if they matter at all.