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Okay, I'm going to go ahead and lay out the two points of discussion that I would like to really get off the table and address.
The first point that I would like to discuss is the "needless" killing of animals. You seem to not agree with this for some reason which is essentially my main reason for being adamant in trying to lock down this point.
You have already agreed to the following: We do not need to kill animals for survival in this day and age, we do not need to eat animals for nutritious reasons and we do not need to eat animals in order to be healthy.
If we do not need to kill animals for any of these three reasons and we can also avoid doing so based upon the alternative products that we can eat in our society then how is it not "needless" killing? We do not HAVE to kill that animal, there are alternative sources, it's needless to kill the animal when you can choose those options instead.
And in our initial discussion you appealed to the fact that many things are "unnecessary", which is true, but that did not address my initial point about the needless killings of animals specifically. It was my fault for not really noting that red-herring which diverts away from the main point I asked, but please try to stay on point for the question that I am referring to in particular.
Do you acknowledge that the animals being killed is in fact needless when it is avoidable? If so, then I'd like to move onto the second point of discussion and be done with this initial point.
Of course, under those extreme survival cases then yes, I do not object to killing/eating an animal for survival.
I do, however, object to killing/eating an animal when you do not have to kill the animal in the first place and can instead just eat plants.
I jut mean it in the sense of "not required", simple.
So, it's perfectly reasonable to deliberately kill animals when it is not required? Especially after you acknowledge that we do not require their flesh survival, nutritious purposes and health reasons? Even when we can just eat plants alternatives that are required for a good balanced diet/survival instead?
I'm asserting it and asking you the question to that specific point, when I mention "irrelevant red-herrings" I'm talking about you diverting away from THAT particular point of question that I had asked and onto a separate side point that is irrelevant to the initial one.
So, again, I'm not going to let you divert away, even if I DID then we can bring up some analogies/examples of absurdities going by your logic and take it that step further, but refrain from that for now.
You say it's "not" needless to kill these animals when we do not have to kill them and can instead choose to pick an alternative option. Deliberately breeding them into existence, raising them for slaughter and proceeding to kill them when it is not required to do so in the first place is not needless?
We bring intent and victims into the equation, when you compare other things in life that are needless I can't help but sense a false equivalence in their comparison to deliberate killing of sentient organisms when it is not required to do so.
P.S. - I'm keeping my responses VERY short and onto the important aspects of your responses, I'll probably edit it better or something tomorrow.
Don't know how to use this forum all that well, so I'll just type it separately.
When you bring into question these other "needless" things I hope you're sure to bring in to question the infringement sentient life in a negative way, or at least consider the magnitude of things.
When I say "just eat plants" I'm simply generally referring to the plant-based alternative foods available.
Now you're moving onto the SECOND point of discussion that I wanted to delve into. That's all good and whatnot
but on this first point I'd like for you to stay
I'll address this large comment of yours later on because there's a good chunk of context, intent and elements that you're leaving out which demonstrate the difference between the two. Not sure if it's deliberate.
Also, you do realize that with veganism it isn't an all "100% ethical-free zone"/"100% no killing at all" type of case, right? It's about reducing as much unnecessary death/exploitation/suffering as possible, reasonably so. Please quote this to tell me you're at least on board with this gist, gotta get this straight for our second point if we even delve in there.
This is slightly malformed but I believe I know what you're asking so...Do you concede to point of meat, yes or no?
You're jumping to another point of wheat (point two of discussion) as if it negates the one about meat
Yes or no? If it is not required to kill for these animal products then the killing of itself is indeed needless. Please answer this question before pointing to wheat, which will be the next point to address.
That's completely irrelevant when you just acknowledge that you don't need to eat animal products for; survival, nutritious reasons and health.
Sure, in the context of extreme "survival" and whatnot then yes, we've been over this
But we're talking about the context of your position in society today
No, I do know what a red-herring is.
I specifically ask you a question in direct contingent to the meat point (needless point) and you divert away subtlely and point to wheat and other needless things without addressing and staying fully on point to what I was arguing in that particular argument
We can address the other thing you brought up next.
No, we're talking about the context of what you're in NOW. Of course it wouldn't be needless throughout all contexts because there's still the extreme survival point, which you brought up, and in that instance it would not be needless, no.
I'm talking about the instance now, not in some hypothetical scenario where you're on a deserted island and whatnot. In today's society.
Of course, that's why I brought up the major differences between the contexts because I wasn't sure if you understood or deliberately left them out which pointed to the false equivalence. I would love to get into explaining these, because I'm noticing that you leave them out still.
If you wanna point to the many other "needless" things in life I hope you're talking about the infringement of sentient beings in a negative way and whatnot, like the way we were discussing.
So, once more, I shall ask this question:
The animals killed in the animal agricultural industry are slaughtered for food when it is not required to kill them for said products as we have alternative products to choose from. You have acknowledged the three things before. Do you acknowledge that the animals are being killed in the animal agricultural industry needlessly when it is not required? Yes or no?
The whole "wheat tho" argument will be addressed if you want to appeal to it in the next argument because there's a lot of grounds to cover there
But, for this question in particular do you acknowledge this killing to be needless as it is not required?
And also, I'm talking about today's society,
I explained the who "island tho" argument prior to be a bit more clear
Once this point is hashed out then we can move onto the crop harvest argument which is the second point
I should also let you know, I may have to post-pone soon just in case because I'm prioritizing my free hours to catch up with exam work and illustrations. If so, I'll give the call to post-pone.