Death

[Laurens]

Hello,

I thought I would start a nice cheery topic to lift everyone's mood a bit.

Death has been on my mind quite a bit the past few days. On Wednesday my teacher (and father of one of my good friends) collapsed and was rushed to hospital, I later found out that he died of a heart attack :cry: he was a lovely guy and a great teacher.

It's my first close experience of death in my adult life - the last was my grandfather who died when I was a child, so I wasn't really at an age where I could reflect upon it that much.

The first thing I was thinking about is who unresolved it leaves things, the last I saw of him I didn't even say goodbye, I just walked out of the class with the assumption that I'd be seeing him the next day. Most of us would like to be able to say our last goodbye to someone, or to be able to say goodbye to all our loved ones when we die but it rarely works like that. There must be so many people who die perhaps after having some argument or disagreement with a loved one that never gets resolved.

That leads me to the second thing I was thinking of, how the nature of death is both certain and uncertain at the same time. The certainty is that we are all going to die one day, the uncertainty is that we have no way of knowing when, or at least extremely rarely we do. I could go out for a walk today cross the road without paying attention and get hit by a car and that could be it for me. This could be my last post. It's hard to keep in our minds, most of us would prefer not to start our day thinking that we might die - but in some ways it enriches things, it makes you not want to leave unresolved conflicts, to not leave people without saying a hearty goodbye, it makes you want to make the best of every day.

We have no real choice over the kind of death we have. Most of us would like to go peacefully, having said a tearful goodbye to all our loved ones as they stand weeping at the bedside, but we have no real choice in the matter.

I have no fear of death itself, there would be no me left - it would be the same as it was before I was born. My real fear is to die painfully, leaving things unresolved, and without saying goodbye. There's no way of achieving certainty that I can die in the way I want, and that unsettles me.

Anyway I don't quite know where I'm going with this, I just had some things I wanted to get off my chest. I thought maybe we could discuss the philosophical implications of death...

 

[CosmicJoghurt]

Geez.. that's tough. I've never been in a situation like that, so I can't really say I know how you feel. Let's just assert that I feel for you.

That aside, I try not to think about death. In my age I have other things to worry about... that doesn't stop me from bursting into tears sometimes when think about situations like this one, involving people who are dear to me... I usually just think of death as what makes life worth it, that usually scares away bad feelings

Cheers

 

[Welshidiot]

Ten years ago my wife died suddenly, and without warning. She had only just turned 30.

It was, and still is, the worst thing that ever happened to me, and the repercussions of it are still rolling on right now, particularly in regards to my relationship with my daughter who is now 14.
Also, pointless bitterness and recrimination from certain people have made the aftermath of my wife's death extremely stressful, right up to this moment, and it doesn't look like it'll ease off any time soon.

So if you haven't been through a serious bereavement, just imagine the worst possible thing you can, then imagine the aftermath being as painful as hell in it's own right, and then imagine the repercussions echoing on for the rest of your life,............NOW imagine just how much you wanna fuckin talk about it!

 

[Dean]

Philosophical implications of death? Like what?

I am all too often astounded by the fear and horror associated with death. Death is simply the end of consciousness, and ultimately, there is nothing "strange", let alone supernatural about it. Death, just like consciousness in many respects, is a biophysical process that all organisms undergo. The same goes for extinction (the dying of a species), which, ultimately, will welcome into its ranks, the long-lost species known as Homo S "Sapiens" in not very long, in my opinion.

I don't see how human death even has any implications, any more than any other life-form's. Other than the fact that the world will continue without us. Whether or not there are any serious philosophical connotations to that, I do not know. What do you suggest?

 

[CosmicJoghurt]

Philosophical implications of death? Like what?

I am all too often astounded by the fear and horror associated with death. Death is simply the end of consciousness, and ultimately, there is nothing "strange", let alone supernatural about it. Death, just like consciousness in many respects, is a biophysical process that all organisms undergo. The same goes for extinction (the dying of a species), which, ultimately, will welcome into its ranks, the long-lost species known as Homo S "Sapiens" in not very long, in my opinion.

I don't see how human death even has any implications, any more than any other life-form's. Other than the fact that the world will continue without us. Whether or not there are any serious philosophical connotations to that, I do not know. What do you suggest?

I think he means philosophical implications as in how the inescapabilty (were that a word) of death would influence one's life, one's philosophical set of beliefs, so to speak.

But I ain't sure, though, he wasn't very specific.

 

[)O( Hytegia )O(]

I share many views upon death as I do with Kurt Vonnegut, and, well, my Grandfather (though he is a Christian, but who cares? He's a badass).
It's not exactly a spoiler to the ending of a movie - we die. It's just the way it is. Dying is never beautiful, or majestic. There's no such thing as dying peacefully within most circumstances. It just happens, and it's going to happen.
But that's not a bad thing - in fact, Death is the best part about the human experience.
It is our finite timeline and that sense of inevitability that makes us strive to do more, to be better, and to do anything. In the belief I hold (as silly as it may be) our spirits do this BECAUSE of the excitement, BECAUSE of the adventure, BECAUSE of what we can do.

Live while you live, then die and be done with it.
[showmore=My Views Upon Life][/showmore]

[showmore=My Views Upon Death]Death Be Not Proud by John Donne

Death be not proud, though some have called thee
Mighty and dreadfull, for, thou art not so,
For, those, whom thou think'st, thou dost overthrow,
Die not, poore death, nor yet canst thou kill me.
From rest and sleepe, which but thy pictures bee,
Much pleasure, then from thee, much more must flow,
And soonest our best men with thee doe goe,
Rest of their bones, and soules deliverie.
Thou art slave to Fate, Chance, kings, and desperate men,
And dost with poyson, warre, and sicknesse dwell,
And poppie, or charmes can make us sleepe as well,
And better then thy stroake; why swell'st thou then?
One short sleepe past, wee wake eternally,
And death shall be no more; death, ]thou shalt die.[/showmore]

 

[Squawk]

The idea of death hasn't bothered me for a while. What bothers me are the implications for the living, which unfortunately Welshidiot has intimate understanding of.

My only concern if I die is my family. Last things said don't bother me. Love shared between people is not affected by day to day trivialities, the last thing I say to someone has little impact on anything other than an irrational notion of thinking it somehow affected them.

People always want the chance to say goodbye. I struggle to imagine going through anything worse, and indeed contemplating doing so has just about brought me to tears right now, somewhat unexpectedly.

I contend that the bond of love is the most powerful force we deal with. The implications of that are simply that those who live after a loved one dies are full of regret, remorse and sorry for what has been lost.

I hate death, not for what it will do to me, I won't give a shit once dead, but for the impact death has on others.

 

[devilsadvocate]

There's lecture series on philosophy uploaded by Yalecourses on youtube called "Death with Shelly Kagan" (some of you might remember him from debating William Lane Craig a while back). It's probably not what Laurens had in mind, but I felt I'd link to it in any case as I found it very good watch. Amongst other things it tackles issues of existence of soul, dualism vs. monism in general, different identity theories (what makes you you) with great clarity.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=p2J7wSuFRl8&feature=list_related&playnext=1&list=SPEA18FAF1AD9047B0

 

[Mauricio Duque]

Hello,


The first thing I was thinking about is who unresolved it leaves things, the last I saw of him I didn't even say goodbye, I just walked out of the class with the assumption that I'd be seeing him the next day. Most of us would like to be able to say our last goodbye to someone, or to be able to say goodbye to all our loved ones when we die but it rarely works like that. There must be so many people who die perhaps after having some argument or disagreement with a loved one that never gets resolved.

Thats true, but even if that makes you feel sad, thats irrelevant to the person that died, since her cant feel any more pain of sufering, shes dead and its over. Wanting a last goodbye, or a last "have a good day", its only to make you feel better, because would have no impact so ever on the person after shes dead.

Its a selfish sentiment, but that is part of being human.

Notice that iam arguing from my point of view about death, that it has no other life after this one.

It's hard to keep in our minds, most of us would prefer not to start our day thinking that we might die - but in some ways it enriches things, it makes you not want to leave unresolved conflicts, to not leave people without saying a hearty goodbye, it makes you want to make the best of every day.

But its also impractical, because its almost sure that you cant finish everything that you begin on every day of your life, and you can have so many interactions with other people, that would be impossible not having at least some unresolved conflits.

You could in theory, fill your day only with actions and interactions that you know that you will not leave it unresolved, but that will also be empty interactions, with almost no impact on the people that surrounds you, will be like:

"Oh...he said good morning, every day to me".

But i agree with you, if you have some conflict with someone that you care, you sould look for a way to make amends, because you dont know for how long that person will be available, but its impractical wanting to resolve a serious conflict in a single day.

I have no fear of death itself, there would be no me left - it would be the same as it was before I was born. My real fear is to die painfully, leaving things unresolved, and without saying goodbye. There's no way of achieving certainty that I can die in the way I want, and that unsettles me.

But thats for everyone, worring about that is useless too, its like worring if a asteroid gona hit the earth, we have no means to avoid it, but if happens we have to deal with it (not you in the case of your death XD).

If you worry about what gona happens after you die, you can make some practical things like, a life ensure, make some savings to leave to your family, teach good things to your sons, theres a phrase that i like, that is:

"You cant live after you die, but you can make the world a better place, that when you entered".

And in the most part, thats all we can do.

 

[Andiferous]

Philosophical implications of death? Like what?

I am all too often astounded by the fear and horror associated with death. Death is simply the end of consciousness, and ultimately, there is nothing "strange", let alone supernatural about it. Death, just like consciousness in many respects, is a biophysical process that all organisms undergo. The same goes for extinction (the dying of a species), which, ultimately, will welcome into its ranks, the long-lost species known as Homo S "Sapiens" in not very long, in my opinion.

I don't see how human death even has any implications, any more than any other life-form's. Other than the fact that the world will continue without us. Whether or not there are any serious philosophical connotations to that, I do not know. What do you suggest?

What I see missing here is acknowledgment that more often than not, death is a long, painful process, likely 100X worse than your worst flu bug. Not only this, but often people suffer knowing that the only end of their suffering is death, and despite their struggles, they can never look forward to health and regular life again. Couple that with frequent loss of dignity of those who are suffering, when they can no longer care for themselves. It's all a horribly depressing process. Death is depressing.

And as Welsh pointed out, those ultimately most affected by your death are the people around you, who may carry around their bereavement and emotional trauma for years after you lose consciousness. So the physical death-life cycle is not the only element affected by our mortality.

 

[Dean]

I neglected to mention: it also depends on how you meet your demise, yes. And that seems to be what you are alluding to here.

 

[Welshidiot]

I neglected to mention: it also depends on how you meet your demise, yes. And that seems to be what you are alluding to here.

al,·lu,·sion (-lzhn)
n.
1. The act of alluding; indirect reference: "Without naming names, the candidate criticized the national leaders by allusion."
2. An instance of indirect reference: "an allusion to classical mythology in a poem."

No Dean, Andiferous was not "alluding" to how people meet their demise, she was explicitly discussing how people meet their demise.

 

[Dean]

I neglected to mention: it also depends on how you meet your demise, yes. And that seems to be what you are alluding to here.

al,·lu,·sion (-lzhn)
n.
1. The act of alluding; indirect reference: "Without naming names, the candidate criticized the national leaders by allusion."
2. An instance of indirect reference: "an allusion to classical mythology in a poem."

No Dean, Andiferous was not "alluding" to how people meet their demise, she was explicitly discussing how people meet their demise.

Either way, I can't really see any significant difference in what we (Andiferous and I) assert, as I said. I just don't view death as something that has implications post-hoc. Ultimately, it is more a question of what one makes of one's self before they die. Otherwise, they cease to exist, and it ends there. A J.B.S. Haldane quote comes to mind, at this point. Another word that springs to mind here upon Andiferous mentioning this is "adequacies". There is an adequate range with which to "meet your demise", and the way you meet it. Most people who die of old age do not, as he mentioned, have a painless death. It can be a hideous process.

 

[Welshidiot]

@ Dean

I thought you'd like to know the correct definition and usage of the word you misused, so that you could avoid misusing it again.

 

[Dean]

@ Dean

I thought you'd like to know the correct definition and usage of the word you misused, so that you could avoid misusing it again.

Fair enough.

 

[Kelly Jones]

I see death as the same essential processes of cause and effect responsible for life. There is no actual barrier between the causal processes that create biological organisms, and those that create inanimate objects. So my philosophical approach to death is that it isn't inherently there. Life and death are arbitrary divisions in the seamless flow of causality.

When one is no longer conscious, because the brain's chemistry is altered and the tissue decaying, then nothing appears to us any longer. Self vanishes. But that doesn't mean causality stops. It simply means nothing is perceived.

So, it's good to act as if one may die (stop existing/perceiving) at any moment, and be urged to live to the highest ideals now. But also, it's good to remember that one's actions will reach onwards, continuing to influence millions and billions of others....

.

 

[Laurens]

Philosophical implications of death? Like what?

I am all too often astounded by the fear and horror associated with death. Death is simply the end of consciousness, and ultimately, there is nothing "strange", let alone supernatural about it. Death, just like consciousness in many respects, is a biophysical process that all organisms undergo. The same goes for extinction (the dying of a species), which, ultimately, will welcome into its ranks, the long-lost species known as Homo S "Sapiens" in not very long, in my opinion.

I don't see how human death even has any implications, any more than any other life-form's. Other than the fact that the world will continue without us. Whether or not there are any serious philosophical connotations to that, I do not know. What do you suggest?

I think he means philosophical implications as in how the inescapabilty (were that a word) of death would influence one's life, one's philosophical set of beliefs, so to speak.

But I ain't sure, though, he wasn't very specific.

Yes that's what I was getting at

Being aware of the inevitability of death has an impact on the way we view life.

It's that impact I want to discuss.

Sorry for not being clear

 

[CosmicJoghurt]

I'd say it's up to each person how they deal with death.

 

[)O( Hytegia )O(]

I'd say it's up to each person how they deal with death.

I'm not sure if it's the Vicodin or the wording,
but when I read this, what popped into my head was:
"Well, it's less about dealing with it and more about accepting it as a fact - because it's going to happen, regardless of your mental preparation for it."

 

[Thomas Doubting]

Quite simple really.. Life sucks and then you're dead.