Death Penalty

[Aught3]

I haven't heard anything that solves the problem of innocent people being executed.

 

[Mazzerkhan]

I have been watching this thread for a while and am going to throw my two cents in. I don't agree with the death penalty in any circumstance. I do agree with hard labour. I think the general concensus on the thread is that Murder is wrong and that no body has the right to take anybody else life. Hence I have always had issue with the state being able to step around that rule. Taking any bodies life is murder, whether your the state or a crack head..
As for the retribution side of things (which I think is the real reason most people are pro-DP) may I cite a couple of infamous murderers from the UK (Ian Huntley, molested two 12 years old then killed them, Ian Brady serial child molestor and murders). Both of these men have been sentenced to life, Ian Brady tried to kill himself by hunger strike and the UK gov went to court to force feed him, they were not prepared to let him off the hook, he has been in prison now for 40 years and knows he will never ever be allowed out, he hates every moment of his exsistance. Which do you think gives his victims families more peace..the fact that he could have executed 40 years ago and now be a forgotten memory or the fact that for 40 years he has been locked up and made to suffer. Ian Huntley is in the same position as is Peter Sutcliff (the Yorkshire ripper killed 12-15 women). They have all been attacked in prison (Sutcliff lost an eye).Every day for them is horrific, which is as it should be.
May I also just add that as an atheist I know these guys aren't going to hell. I want them to spend 40-50 years having a horrible life, having to face up to their actions every day..i don't want them let off the hook.

 

[ahdkaw]

I am completely against capital punishment, as far as I'm concerned it's a barbaric act. Idealistic I know, but I'm not in charge so it's not my decision to make.

 

[Trinitron]

I think that the death penalty is disgusting. I am supposed to trust my government, I don't but I'm supposed to. How can I though if they are willing to murder citizens, regardless of what they have done. Death does not justify death in my eyes. My government sinking to the level of as serial killer is NOT okay with me, I think it is horribly disturbing. Life imprisonment to reflect is the worst thing you can do to someone I think, rather than letting them out easy with the death penalty. Rehabilitation should be the purpose of incarceration in these cases, so we can at least learn what drove these people to doing whatever they are being incarcerated for. To those who say putting someone in a rehabilitation facility is stupid because they shouldn't be getting "nice places to live", I'm fairly certain that people asking you questions all day and examining you all day is horrible. These people need help, so why not give it to them? Why not give them a nice place to change?

Also: To the guy who said that these murderers/rapists are " the tumors of society", I would ask you what is it we do with actual tumors in people? We STUDY THEM so we can LEARN about them. We study them so we can learn to treat and prevent them. Why is this case any different?

 

[MachineSp1rit]

I haven't heard anything that solves the problem of innocent people being executed.

well go back and read it then.

I think that the death penalty is disgusting. I am supposed to trust my government, I don't but I'm supposed to. How can I though if they are willing to murder citizens, regardless of what they have done. Death does not justify death in my eyes. My government sinking to the level of as serial killer is NOT okay with me, I think it is horribly disturbing. Life imprisonment to reflect is the worst thing you can do to someone I think, rather than letting them out easy with the death penalty. Rehabilitation should be the purpose of incarceration in these cases, so we can at least learn what drove these people to doing whatever they are being incarcerated for. To those who say putting someone in a rehabilitation facility is stupid because they shouldn't be getting "nice places to live", I'm fairly certain that people asking you questions all day and examining you all day is horrible. These people need help, so why not give it to them? Why not give them a nice place to change?

Also: To the guy who said that these murderers/rapists are " the tumors of society", I would ask you what is it we do with actual tumors in people? We STUDY THEM so we can LEARN about them. We study them so we can learn to treat and prevent them. Why is this case any different?

i'm starting to get a bit frustrated with answering the same question every time. Have you read the previous pages? have you read them carefully?

yes? then no use of saying the same thing again.

no? then go and read it. and once you are done, then you can answer to my arguments against those ideas.

At any rate i think i'll get some quotes for you anyway.

there really is not much to learn about them. probably they were raped when they were kids, their mom beat them, or somebody raped their mom and then killed her or maybe they are just inherently nuts. apart from this, keeping them as white mice till the end of their days for somebody to make money about wirintg about their lifes and not giving any result in return, won't make them any better, u might as well put them into conviction.

it's not just about being an easy solution, but what is best for the rest of the society. and okay fine u can try this damn rehabilitation but it most certainly will not work with people who had slaughtered and violently killed, it MAY work against lil thieves or drugdealers. and like i said, u can always try and if u need to try to see that you will fail then so be it. and like i said (again) people of this kind should not be shown any kind of tolerance, there is nothing inhuman in this. and stop saying that society has failed them, one individual is not a society, and there is no and never will be a society where everyone can be successful and nobody will have this kind of defects. By the individual i mean the one(s) that has influenced this person on such acts. i think that these people have failed the society, not the other way around.

for Joe, if there will be no prisons with violent convicts and violent guards nobody will be afraid of the punishment. Of course the current system is far from perfect, but it's best there has ever been. And your beloved
rehabilitation, it is possible rehabilitating lesser criminals, but never these, and where do you expect them to be rehabilitated? in prison? or in pretty white and blue apartment on some Iceland? I'm off to slaughter kids then.

I would love you see rehabilitating Jack the ripper in the prison.

and lol

I would ask you what is it we do with actual tumors in people? We STUDY THEM so we can LEARN about them. We study them so we can learn to treat and prevent them

well if u really wanna know u can't really cure a tumor. Tumors are removed if possible, they are destroyed by specified cells, or they kill the host. not the best example to choose.

 

[Aught3]

well go back and read it then.

I have been following this thread from the beginning and I have yet to see anything that solves the problem of innocent people being executed, as we know has happened in the past. If you think I missed something kindly quote it in your next reply.

 

[MachineSp1rit]

I have been following this thread from the beginning and I have yet to see anything that solves the problem of innocent people being executed, as we know has happened in the past. If you think I missed something kindly quote it in your next reply.

yep, no problem.

but that risk is decreased to minimal with appropriate investigation technology getting improved as well as experience of the investigators.+the time delay for judges to rethink their verdict and lawyers to get prepared, search for new evidences of innocence (if there are any). The Chance will be pretty close to zero

 

[Trinitron]

To MachineSp1rit: These people who kill and/or rape a lot of people are obviously mentally disturbed, and so we should try to study their conditions so we can learn more. Why would we do anything else? What does killing them help? You also make the assumption that rehabilitation will not work, but I have never seen anything proving this. I'm not saying that it does work, what I'm saying is that you need to prove it doesn't. To your bullshit Jack the Ripper argument: I don't doubt that Jack the Ripper ( who you don't know anything about I might add ) was beyond help when he committed his crimes. Again, I do think that these people especially should be studied so we can learn about their mental problems.

You also make the strange assumption that all murderers are psychopaths, which I think is unreasonable. Gang related violence is responsible for many deaths. Society has failed these people and they deserve our help.

Regarding the tumor, the reason I used that example was because someone called these psychopaths "tumors of society". The point was that we study tumors in humans, why not do this in society? I also never said we could cure tumors, you sort of made that up. I said TREAT and PREVENT. Read asshole.

 

[MachineSp1rit]

what the hell are you doing here anyways? you can connect simple things.

they are mentally disturbed because of

there really is not much to learn about them. probably they were raped when they were kids, their mom beat them, or somebody raped their mom and then killed her or maybe they are just inherently nuts.

but since they got in prison that means they are healthy enough to be responsible for their actions. yeah will take a big time to study them. you are a damned genius, why didn't humanity think of this before?

The rehabilitation will not work with these people, I just know something about life and about people. once you do something like murder, the second time doesn't seem that hard. Earth is full with people without any principles and moral. and you can not change these in adulthood. besides the purpose of rehabilitation is to get a criminal back to society as it's member, not to rehabilitate to keep him in the conviction. or do you think that if they say "hey i have been rehabilitated! i can get back to freedom, i'll get a nice job in flower shop, i will have a pretty wife and five, no, six kids!" they will return?

i have never said that all murderers are psychopaths.


It was me who called them "tumors of society". What does "treating a tumor" mean? does it mean magically turning it into a piece of normal tissue? about preventing, that's a huge LOL because if you want to prevent this you will have to annihilate all the evil on earth, witch is more than not possible. like i said, there will never be a perfect society where everybody can be successful and nobody will have these kind of defects.

edit: oh and spare me the language, you are just making yourself look more pathetic.

 

[Spase]

Sure it is. The Left needs to put a pricetag on human life. Then, they can adopt the argument to their 'abortion' industry

Okay. I tried reading the whole thread and couldn't do it because you keep making things up. I'm going to summarize how the issue of price came up and why it's being discussed as the central issue here to help you out. I did get to page 6.. or maybe 5.

You say "the death penalty is good."

People say "no, the death penalty kills innocent people! Life is prison has no downsides as compared to the death penalty!"

You say - now pay close attention here - "but why should we be paying to keep them in prison for life???"

I'd like to take a moment to point out you just stuck a price tag on human life. Please try to keep this in mind going forward. You seem to have forgotten in the thread but I hope your attention span is long enough to handle this.

Next people say "No, you're wrong. here are facts. The death penalty costs more"

Next you say, "I didn't read your facts but I made some things up! Lets change how we kill people which has nothing to do with the expense!"

So people tell you, "But.. the facts... read them. Please?"

So you repeat yourself several times... Eventually you get around to saying, "Well... those expenses would just transfer to other cases if there was no death penalty"

People say, "But.. there're states that allow and states that disallow it... we have comparative figures and you're making things up again.."

I'd like to add here that there will never be any lack of cases for public defenders. As someone with a lot of experience in the area let me tell you, the number of cases they have to shoulder is based on the rights given to people tried for crimes, not the other way around. Because of our right to a speedy trial the government is required to keep up. We will not simply always work "at capacity" we happen to be working over capacity.

Then someone jumps in and says, "But it's not about money!"

So you abandon your sinking ship of an argument by saying, "Damn liberals! always trying to put a price on life!"

I really hope you can see that even if I agreed with your position... I'd think you're ludicrous. You brought up price as the only decent argument for why life imprisonment isn't as good as the death penalty. It was people refuting your price argument that brought us here... you were arguing to kill people because it's cheap... it wasn't liberals arguing to keep them alive because it's cheap.

 

[Aught3]

The Chance will be pretty close to zero

One is one too many. The chance will never be zero.

 

[Spase]

Okay... I know you're getting frustrated and that's probably where some of your more off the wall statements are coming from but I have to say something.

The rehabilitation will not work with these people, I just know something about life and about people. once you do something like murder, the second time doesn't seem that hard.

Either you're a killer and you remember how much harder it was that first time... or you're making things up. I vote for the second option. Some people do get rehabilitated. If you think these people are hardened try reading the book, "A long way gone" (really, look it up, it's a great book) it's about child soldiers who slaughter a lot of people.. and how some of them are rehabilitated.

I'm not just speaking from a book I read though, I know people who have been to prison for varying amounts of time and been rehabilitated. I know you're suggesting this is for the worst of the worst killers... but then you say, "Once you kill someone killing more people is just what you do, you'll never be better.." so I can't tell which people you support executing. Is this for gang-bangers? is it for the crazy loners who skin people and make them into hats? Is it for the guy who comes home and shoots his wife and her lover? Who is it important that we kill instead of just locking them up. You do realize that the really loony ones don't go in with general population right? You know there's protective custody and solitary confinement right?

there really is not much to learn about them. probably they were raped when they were kids, their mom beat them, or somebody raped their mom and then killed her or maybe they are just inherently nuts.

Interestingly many people who are raped as kids and/or beaten grow up to not be psychotic serial killers. Clearly your model of causality fails. Come back when you can give me predictive results and I'll agree there's not much to learn. Until then, you're just pretending this is either a simple issue not worthy of study, or one so complex we'll never be able to improve it.... I can't tell which side of that particular debate you're on but clearly you're sure that more study in the area is worthless.

Stop it with all this "how you treat a tumor" stuff. It's overextending the metaphor. If you really want me to I can explain how and why tumors are biopsied and then studied so we know how to treat them individually and then re-relate that to this thread but I don't think *anyone* wants that.

I want someone to give me a simple answer to a simple question. What are the advantages of the death penalty over life imprisonment? I agree that some people are bad enough they shouldn't keep on living. I've met some of them. I just don't see your reasoning.

 

[MachineSp1rit]

One is one too many. The chance will never be zero.

there are infinite possibilities between one and zero.

ther you're a killer and you remember how much harder it was that first time... or you're making things up. I vote for the second option. Some people do get rehabilitated. If you think these people are hardened try reading the book, "A long way gone" (really, look it up, it's a great book) it's about child soldiers who slaughter a lot of people.. and how some of them are rehabilitated.

I'm not just speaking from a book I read though, I know people who have been to prison for varying amounts of time and been rehabilitated. I know you're suggesting this is for the worst of the worst killers... but then you say, "Once you kill someone killing more people is just what you do, you'll never be better.." so I can't tell which people you support executing. Is this for gang-bangers? is it for the crazy loners who skin people and make them into hats? Is it for the guy who comes home and shoots his wife and her lover? Who is it important that we kill instead of just locking them up. You do realize that the really loony ones don't go in with general population right? You know there's protective custody and solitary confinement right?

finally some reasonable talking, actually that post was only one here that made my change my mind a bit. However No i'm not a killer, The first thing i can think of is kissing a girl, i remember when i was 15 how much have i been nervous about it, and once i did kiss her, the following kisses were not that hard, the second one, third, fourth... then it stops being that much significant(it really is a superdelightful thing to do though ^_^). It's same thing with stealing, raping, murdering, of course it's not the exactly same story everywhere, but well, old habits die hard. I refer to the worst of the killers of course, just watched the movie "the hitcher" with Sean Bean, he looks like a nice guy at first, but he certainly should take a capital punishment. " Who is it important that we kill instead of just locking them up"-it's in the OP. the simple answer-the influence over other convicts, the risk of them getting back to freedom.

Interestingly many people who are raped as kids and/or beaten grow up to not be psychotic serial killers.

I have never said that. but the vast majority of psychotic serial killers used to get raped/beaten/somehow harassed/inherently had problems/got a mental trauma in childhood, or anything of that kind. See the difference?

you're just pretending this is either a simple issue not worthy of study, or one so complex we'll never be able to improve it.... I can't tell which side of that particular debate you're on but clearly you're sure that more study in the area is worthless.

I say that the reasons are simple, they all take origins from the imperfecty of humans themselves, which derives the imperfecty(right word?) of any society we have built, which has the defects like this people. "if you want to prevent this you will have to annihilate all the evil on earth, witch is more than not possible"

p.s. could you tell me who is the author of that book please.

 

[Aught3]

there are infinite possibilities between one and zero.

No there aren't, you can't mistakenly execute half a person.

 

[Th1sWasATriumph]

**WARNINGS**

Machine and Trinitron just got themselves warned. Thought you'd like to know, guys.

 

[COMMUNIST FLISK]

**WARNINGS**

Machine and Trinitron just got themselves warned. Thought you'd like to know, guys.

not taking any part in this debate through actually debating (though i did vote in favour of capital punishment)

why exactly were they warned?

please give reasons for why you warn people

 

[Th1sWasATriumph]

why exactly were they warned?

please give reasons for why you warn people

I always give reasons, they're just not visible to everyone. Inappropriate language and behaviour basically.

 

[COMMUNIST FLISK]

oh ok fair enough

 

[MachineSp1rit]

No there aren't, you can't mistakenly execute half a person.

If you execute 1k convicts and one of them appears to be innocent then the chance of executing the innocent will be 0.1%.

same with if you have 500 convicts, and 1 is innocent, you would get 0.5%, meaning "half a person"

 

[Spase]

" Who is it important that we kill instead of just locking them up"-it's in the OP. the simple answer-the influence over other convicts, the risk of them getting back to freedom.

I can't speak for other countries but in the USA it has been a very very long time since anyone escaped from the kinds of prisons we put killers in. We have varying levels of prisons with a set that is reserved for the most violent and disruptive inmates. Even in these prisons we have them designed so that particular prisoners are kept apart from the general population. This means the effect on other prisoners will be tiny is any. It also means the chances of escape will be tiny.

We don't lock non-violent criminals up with serial killers to my knowledge.

I have never said that. but the vast majority of psychotic serial killers used to get raped/beaten/somehow harassed/inherently had problems/got a mental trauma in childhood, or anything of that kind. See the difference?

I do see the difference but my point is that because these traumas alone are not enough to define someone as a murderer or not the other contributing causes should also be investigated including things like genetic differences. I don't think you were saying that all people who are raped grow up to be killers, my point was until we can understand why some do and others do not there is still more there to study.

I say that the reasons are simple, they all take origins from the imperfecty of humans themselves, which derives the imperfecty(right word?) of any society we have built, which has the defects like this people. "if you want to prevent this you will have to annihilate all the evil on earth, witch is more than not possible"

The word you're actually looking for is imperfection.

My argument is that by examining which people are growing up this way we can examine society and hopefully make positive changes to ensure that few people grow up with the kind of twisted thoughts that lead to murder for murder's sake, and at the same time saves the people who would otherwise fall victim to these people. Prevention of future crimes means saving people from these kinds of terrible violence.

I don't think it's as simple as annihilating all evil and I think improvements are possible in any society today. Looking at history we find that over time murder rates have been dropping as countries become developed. Some people think that murder is something that is intrinsic to humans but the data argues otherwise.

This is an eye opening talk by Steven Pinker about how society has changed over time with respect to violence:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ramBFRt1Uzk&feature=channel_page

p.s. could you tell me who is the author of that book please.

The author of the book is Ishmael Beah, it's his autobiography. He grew up in Sierra Leone and spent years as a child soldier.