Dawkins sues Josh Timonen

[d3st88]

I guess, embezzlement is a bit more serious than the loss of an online forum though. If AW closed this site down I'd be annoyed but I wouldn't start celebrating if he got slapped with a civil case for thousands upon thousands of dollars.

Don't underestimate the closing down the forum thing. I wasn't part of that community, but that forum served as a home and a freethinking oasis for an incredible number of people. Closing it down was an outright disastrous decision. Josh Timonen got very infamous for that and to this day I can't bring myself to forgive Mr. Dawkins for this decision of his. :facepalm:

You should read this summary about the events leading to the closure of the RDF Forums if you want to get an idea:
http://realityismyreligion.wordpress.com/2010/02/23/locked-entry-will-open-soon/

 

[Aught3]

I guess, embezzlement is a bit more serious than the loss of an online forum though. If AW closed this site down I'd be annoyed but I wouldn't start celebrating if he got slapped with a civil case for thousands upon thousands of dollars.

Don't underestimate the closing down the forum thing. I wasn't part of that community, but that forum served as a home and a freethinking oasis for an incredible number of people. Closing it down was an outright disastrous decision. Josh Timonen got very infamous for that and to this day I can't bring myself to forgive Mr. Dawkins for this decision of his. :facepalm:

You should read this summary about the events leading to the closure of the RDF Forums if you want to get an idea:
http://realityismyreligion.wordpress.com/2010/02/23/locked-entry-will-open-soon/

Hmmm, thanks but I was a (very minor) member there before the closure and I've refused to go back since. I've read Harrison's account of the behind the scenes stuff and it does make me angry.

Having said that, if Josh did not embezzle this money he does not deserve the incredible hassle this will situation will be to sort out - even if he did ham-handedly close down a popular forum. If he did take the money, then perhaps the old members are justified in a bit of I-told-you-so. But some of the people at ratskep are celebrating the mere news of this lawsuit and don't seem to particular care whether he actually did it or not.

 

[AndromedasWake]

Does anyone have a full rundown of events including the closure of the RD forums? Preferably as objective as possible.

Also, Josh, I've noted from your blog that your account is genuine. I'd be interested to hear your in-depth assessment of these events.

The closure of the forums was well documented by Peter Harrison http://realityismyreligion.wordpress.com/2010/02/23/locked-entry-will-open-soon/.

Josh would be a fool to comment in anything other than the broadest terms unless he runs it by his lawyer first.

Thanks for the link. And re: comment, fair enough.

EDIT: I tried visiting Rationalia and chrome gave me a malware warning.

 

[d3st88]

Having said that, if Josh did not embezzle this money he does not deserve the incredible hassle this will situation will be to sort out - even if he did ham-handedly close down a popular forum. If he did take the money, then perhaps the old members are justified in a bit of I-told-you-so. But some of the people at ratskep are celebrating the mere news of this lawsuit and don't seem to particular care whether he actually did it or not.

Certainly, but I doubt Mr. Dawkins would initiate a lawsuit if he wasn't completely sure about this. I would be very, very disappointed -and much more suprised- if he would accuse an innocent person of anything he didn't commit. I'm not going to judge Josh, but he is very likely to be guilty, for the above reasons.

 

[Tylzen]

I was never a member of RDFF but if what that blog entry about how Josh treated the admin and mod staff of RDFF is true, then he is a complete douche.

Whether he "stole" money or not from the foundation, well that is all speculation from our parts since we do not have access to the evidence.
But I also think it is highly unlikely that Richard Dawkins would start a lawsuit, and possible endanger his reputation, if he wasn't very secure in his case.
I am also more inclined to take Dawkins word over Josh.
We all just have to wait to see what happens.

 

[ManOrAstroman]

According to Josh Timonen's blogged reply today, RD.net hurridly removed his name from a couple of articles he had contributed to the site in the distant past, replacing his name with a mere "By The Richard Dawkins Foundation".

But looking at RD.net now, these articles have been reattributed to Timonen.

http://richarddawkins.net/articles/183

Interesting.

 

[Nautyskin]

I was never a member of RDFF but if what that blog entry about how Josh treated the admin and mod staff of RDFF is true, then he is a complete douche.

I was, and the way Josh writes on his blog there is actually pretty insulting to read. He tries to say it was purely a management decision which he simply 'enforced'. This is a lie. He was outright mocking of the situation. As an example, when people went to archive the locked forums for posterity he set up a redirect to a Rick Astley site. Yes, funny, but throws a little light on how seriously to take his 'I am so sorry' story.

 

[Inferno]

FireFox gave me a warning about Rationalia too.

Anyway, I'm absolutely shocked at the way Josh handled that, if it is true. (Which I don't doubt.) Shocking, this guy, absolutely shocking.

 

[kenandkids]

Hi Everyone,

I guess it's time for me to talk...
http://joshtimonen.com/post/1387207318/the-ultimate-betrayal

Your entire post is saying that you are being persecuted in forms most foul. You portray yourself as a victim and protest having "irreconcilable enemies" for the first time. Grow up and quit whining. I watched many decisions and actions come from you, few of them were very ethical. Much like the lie about closing the forums was a board decision. In case you missed something that everyone else saw: Dawkins vigorously defended you.

I think you finally screwed up to the point that there was no other choice of action than to prosecute.

 

[Millennium]

Hi Everyone,

I guess it's time for me to talk...
http://joshtimonen.com/post/1387207318/the-ultimate-betrayal

It's somewhat hard for me to believe that this is a joke lawsuit...

 

[Anachronous Rex]

Somebody fill me in, who is this guy?

 

[Aught3]

Somebody fill me in, who is this guy?

Runs all the tech stuff for the RDF. Website, online store, etc.

 

[Prolescum]

Somebody fill me in, who is this guy?

Ran all the tech stuff for the RDF. Website, online store, etc.

Fixed

He was also some sort of production assistant, making videos, music and similar for Dawkins' videos as I understand it. I read a thread over at Rationlol Skepticism, (or attempted to but the thread doubled in length while reading it). Pretty hilarious bunch of 'rational skeptics' over there; it's like prep school playground.

 

[Squawk]

One way or the other someones reputation is now in tatters.

Up until 6 months or so ago I would have said with near certainty it was not Dawkins. I considered him a man of reason, one who wouldn't just take anothers word for events but would always seek to establish truth, who would consider evidence etc.

The closure of the RDF forums changed that for me, ironic really, because Dawkins posts defending Josh showed that he hadn't taken the time to gather the facts and instead resorted to quote mines (which presumably he was fed?) and half truths.

That event leads me to be more cautious when arriving at what must be, right now, a completely uninformed opinion. My inclination would simply be to assign probabilities to the "winner" as 70% Dawkins and 30% Josh. That's based on extremely sketchy evidence. Josh's own post on his blog can be considered a half truth. The rickrolling endured by those backing up the forum shows that the shutdown was not managed as it should have been, active attempts to counter backups. (unless Josh is taking the blame for someone else within the foundation, now unlikely since he is being sued by it). The attitude towards mods was abysmal.

So consider me an interested spectator. For Josh I have no respect at this time due to the forum closure. Dawkins has my respect, much reduced after his own handling of the forum stuff. This might relegate him to the zero respect catagory.

 

[ImprobableJoe]

I'm going to say that, at first glance, it is probably safe to say that Richard Dawkins and his organization are filing this claim in good faith regardless of whether or not Timonen is guilty or not. This isn't just Dawkins filing a personal claim, this is the board of his foundation as co-plaintiffs along with him. In that case, it seems likely that there was much consultation with lawyers and accountants before anything went forward.

 

[ManOrAstroman]

The lawyer for the RDF has issued a statement on the RD.net:

http://richarddawkins.net/discussions/538418-a-statement-from-blaine-greenberg-esq

 

[nophun]

The lawyer for the RDF has issued a statement on the RD.net:

http://richarddawkins.net/discussions/538418-a-statement-from-blaine-greenberg-esq

503 error. :|

Google cache
http://webcache.googleusercontent.com/search?sourceid=chrome&ie=UTF-8&q=cache:richarddawkins.net/discussions/538418-a-statement-from-rdfrs-counsel-blaine-greenberg-esq

 

[Aught3]

Try: http://richarddawkins.net/discussions/538418-a-statement-from-rdfrs-counsel-blaine-greenberg-esq

 

[nophun]

Both work now.

http://richarddawkins.net/discussions/538418-3jbfbds8isdfsdf44f4uhfusdb
will work too :P

The 503 most likely had something to so with.

Maintenance
By WEBMASTER - RICHARDDAWKINS.NET
Added: Monday, 25 October 2010 at 5:20 PM

The website will be under going maintenance for approximately one hour 9PM EST.

:facepalm: *self*

 

[borrofburi]

Now I feel bad, because I was plugging an effects pedal with that "scarlet A" that Dawkins has been pushing, and now I don't know if that deal was part of the embezzlement or not.

Well the lawyer's release indicates... maybe? it ays the only embezzled was stuff bought from the store.