Conversation with a Creationist.

[Krazyskooter]

I did a flying faceplant onto my desk to try to induce a slight case of amnesia so I wouldn't have to remember this conversation. I have lost interest in arguing with people over beliefs so I will now post my full conversation and allow you, my dear friends, to decide what the reply should be. I will limit each reply to three paragraphs, each person here can contribute one paragraph and I may ask a couple volunteers to help pick out the best ones, maybe myself, and two others. Judges may not contribute unless they can arrange a non participant to replace them for the round.

Here is everything I have saved from our conversation. I think I may have responded to one of this guys videos around 8 months ago, I just cant remember. It starts off with me apparently having asked a question.

@KrazySkooter That's how it seems, but remember in heaven there is no evil..it is completely void of it. Free will in a sense only exists because evil exists. In heaven we won't even be aware of evil or that it even existed as far as I can gather. It will be complete bliss we cannot even imagine.

So, you're telling me that Heaven is going to be like the Garden of Eden prior to the fall? Then why didn't God in his infinite wisdom and knowledge just bypass condemning all the people to hell and just create them in Heaven to begin with? You bypass all the pain, torture, risk of hell, satan, etc... Don't try using the Free Will card there because you just said that we won't have it in heaven or rather won't even know what evil is. You may say well God gives us a choice, but what of those people that took hundreds of years for the Gospel to reach? They didn't have a choice, they died and went to hell clueless that there was even danger.... You may then think that they went heaven since they obviously couldn't choose, but if that's the case then wouldn't it have been evil to send them the gospel since it would remove their protective cluelessness?
I'm sure you're going to say something along the lines of "It's God's will" or "It's all a part of God's plan" But any intelligent 10 year old could come up with a plan that doesn't involve the murder of an innocent man, Hell, Sin, Satan, mass purgings of humanity, the illusion of a free gift, etc.

I didn't say heaven was going to be like the garden of eden before the fall. No one knows. All you need to realize is that you are not God. Our minds, logic and understanding are folly compared to God's. Please stop putting Him in a box, saying oo if I was God I would have done this and taken away that...there is a divine reason things are like they are. I have asked the very same question you have, but think about it if God had actually have done that and we all of a suddenly existed in heaven, we would feel that we never really did have a choice to love God and obey Him. We would never have known that He actually did come down to earth and die an excrutiating death for us, we couldn't bet on it. The Bible says that he knew us before the foundations of the earth, meaning part of us has always existed or at least existed prior to the creation of the world or maybe even the universe. At this point we do not know, but we will find out one day. The picture is far greater than we can see at this point in time, and I don't think we are ready for it until we die. All I know is that I have seen and experienced things in my life that validate God's existence. So even though my finite human logic tells me, hangon this seems really unfair what God has done, I have faith that God is who He says He is and I trust in His word.

You don't seem to understand how pointless the excruciating death was, or that we wouldn't comprehend having a choice, which is a far better alternative to hell. God's divine plan is crap if it's not the most efficient way possible. God would have a perfect solution to any problem and his solution is obviously not perfect if it involves torture for eternity. Your personal experience with God, doesn't even say much since there are millions of people all over the world who have their very own personal experiences who aren't even Christian. It all boils down to where you're from and what name you call God.

Also, whats wrong with being born in heaven? Why would we just have to pop out of no where? There are so many things wrong with the belief system of Christianity that are just plain illogical, and counter intuitive, that it has to have a failsafe to combat them, and that failsafe is faith. You don't question your own faith, or put it to the test with reality or critical thinking. You throw your hands up in the air and claim a divine plan when you approach a question that doesn't fit with reality, but what's worse is you actively try to convert other people to have that same way of thinking.

I'm speaking from experience,I used to be a fundimental Christian, I was saved, taught sundayschool, studied the Bible diligently and had the experiences every christian use when talking about why they KNOW God exists. But one day you wake up and realize that it's all just crap, and then you move on. Anyway, I'm not interested in debating the rationality of the irrational anymore. Believe what you will, and good luck in life.

You cannot use logic to try and understand everything. It says that God's ways are not ours. The wisdom of men is foolishness in God's eyes. If we knew eveything we would be God wouldn't we? From the research I've done in the last year or so, there is plenty scientific evidence to suggest God exists. From the kalam cosmological argument, universal constants, information and origin of DNA, complexity in cells, left handed amino acids in life forms, the life, death and resurrection of Jesus, the list goes on and this is stuff scientists are completely boggled with. Several atheists have concluded from these observations including anthony flew that life as we know it could not have come about by chance. Yes science is about discovering more but there are just certain things as I mentioned now that scream out a creator.

Then also I have witnessed the casting out of demons, people speaking in tongues including my mother who can only speak one language, people experiencing the holy spirit etc. To deny all this and say there is no God is just willful ignorance. It says in the Bible that Satan is a master deceiver and has fooled billions of people past and present into thinking he is something he is not. Demons can manifest themselves pretty much into whatever they please. People believe in other gods because that is the work of satan. What better way to get them to not believe in the true God? Yes they do have spiritual experiences because satan and his demons are spiritual. It's not rocket science, I know people who have been invloved in the occult, witchcraft and have also experienced these things but end up in a bad state...only through God's grace did they realize what they got themselves into and were freed from that bondage. My best friend has been attacked by a demon, he rebuked it in Jesus name and it fled. Also how do you explain all the UFO sightings?

So my faith is based on all of the above. I don't have all the answers, but one day I will. I try and live my life as Jesus did. He is by far the greatest role model anyone could ever look up to. If he was not really resurrected from the dead, do you really think something as big as Christianity would have risen? Do you think those apostles who put their lives on the line everyday and witnessed miracles would lie about the resurrection?

Don't let the world deceive you.

 

[CosmicJoghurt]

You cannot use logic to try and understand everything. It says that God's ways are not ours. The wisdom of men is foolishness in God's eyes. If we knew eveything we would be God wouldn't we?

There's a big difference between God working in mysterious ways, that, although not illogical or contradicting, are weird, and a perfect God working in imperfect ways, which by itself is a contradiction. This is elementary logic, and cannot be refuted. A perfect God works perfectly. If he doesn't then he isn't perfect, therefore that God is impossible. Eureka.

From the research I've done in the last year or so, there is plenty scientific evidence to suggest God exists. From the kalam cosmological argument, universal constants, information and origin of DNA, complexity in cells, left handed amino acids in life forms, the life, death and resurrection of Jesus, the list goes on and this is stuff scientists are completely boggled with. Several atheists have concluded from these observations including anthony flew that life as we know it could not have come about by chance. Yes science is about discovering more but there are just certain things as I mentioned now that scream out a creator.

Not long ago it was believed that lightnings were a sign of God, simply because how lightnings worked was absolutely unknown. We had no knowledge about electricity, or even what we today consider elementary knowledge on how matter and energy work. Today we know exactly how lightnings work and why they occur, and we no longer point at God for it.

The kalam cosmological argument has been refuted over and over and over again, it's unwise to consider it actual scientific evidence for God's existence, although that possibility is... possible. Universal constants? I answer anthropic principle. DNA, cells, amino acids, ever since we started wondering about them, numerous researches have been done, producing the basic building blocks of all life on earth, and, although we know little about this subject, it's not like we're "completely boggled". We keep experimenting, and guess what? We're succeeding. Also, it is unreasonable to consider the Bible historical evidence, as I could argue, but am too lazy to... well... Apparently Jesus is the only prophet ever described anywhere that actually did all the things he is known for, and all the others are ridiculous bogus bullshit. Sure.

No one is saying it came about by chance. That's bogus.

So my faith is based on all of the above. I don't have all the answers, but one day I will. I try and live my life as Jesus did. He is by far the greatest role model anyone could ever look up to. If he was not really resurrected from the dead, do you really think something as big as Christianity would have risen? Do you think those apostles who put their lives on the line everyday and witnessed miracles would lie about the resurrection?

As Dawkins very well said in his book, The God Delusion, religion growth does not depend only on whether what it claims is true. Something completely bogus can eventually be accepted, if indoctrinated well, like most Christians are. Also, the New Testament, I think, was written years after the supposed happenings. This means that a story is told and passed on through generations, suffering changes along the way, usually one story more exaggerated than the previous one, and so forth. The original story could even be the slightest strange event, exaggerated throughout the ages. I suggest you do a bit more reading of such books and less of the Bible, it's good for ya.


That's more than one paragraph, but you can take what you want from my work, or nothing. (post not yet cleaned)

Thank you.


Out.


Cheers.