Contrast: USA Vs. UK - Outrage over police violence.

[Welshidiot]

Alright tossers, I only popped in for a mo, but the silliness in this thread must be commented on.

For a start.....the long and the short of what Ken said was "isn't it a shame that this beautiful old building has been destroyed, and how ironic considering it survived all those Luftwaffe bombing raids". There was no hyperbole in what Ken said, and if you call that equating the rioters with the Luftwaffe, then I humbly suggest that you're just looking for an argument.

Next......yes "Blitzkrieg" is not the name of any particular conflict, or period during WWII, it is rather a description of a military tactic, and the "blitz-" (lightning) part of it refers to the high speed at which operations are conducted, and men and armaments are moved. So a slightly more elaborate translation would be "war conducted at the speed of lightning."

"The Blitz" got it's name because us Brits are a bunch of ignorant twats who are always calling things by the wrong bloody name!!
Some bloody cockneys heard the term "Blitzkrieg", completely misunderstood it, and misapplied it, and outside of London it was called "air raids", "bombing raids", etc.....

Moving on......I've just listened to an interview with a few "rioting" girls in Croydon. They were saying that the riots were all about "showing the rich we can do what we like". These girls were drinking a bottle of rose, and said they had been drinking all night. I have some problems with their account.
1: For people who have been drinking all night they were remarkably, and I mean REMARKABLY lucid, and their speech was without a single slurred word.
2: Their accents, and mode of speech. Coming from a working class background, and having lived in some pretty rough places around the south of England, I'm prepared to bet large sums of money that the girls being interviewed were from comfortable, well educated, middle-class families.
3: Apparently people in Croydon consider the guys who run their local dry-cleaners to be "the rich". BOLLOCKS!!

I have a strong feeling that the vast majority of the rioters are just looters. I do not believe that they're protesting Police violence or corruption, because apart from Tottenham they're not rioting anywhere where there's been any particular incidents of Police violence/corruption.
Further, I do not believe that this is "poor vs. rich" violence as some commentators have characterised it, rather it is criminal opportunism/opportunistic criminality plain and simple.

 

[Your Funny Uncle]

I don't claim to know the answers but I don't think anything's "plain and simple" here. Everyone seems to be looking for an answer that fits their preconceived political ideas but the longer I live the more I come to the conclusion that things are never as simple as we'd like them to be.

 

[Welshidiot]

I don't claim to know the answers but I don't think anything's "plain and simple" here. Everyone seems to be looking for an answer that fits their preconceived political ideas but the longer I live the more I come to the conclusion that things are never as simple as we'd like them to be.

You have no idea what my political ideas actually are, Uncle, and as a result you're making an erroneous assumption.

At first I thought a certain level of animosity towards the Police was at least understandable if not justified given what I know of Police corruption in some London boroughs.
However after reading the reports of rioting spreading to Birmingham, Bristol, Croydon, etc, that semi-justification makes no sense.
Next, the "rioters" I've seen interviewed have had middle-class accents and modes of speech, they're protesting police brutality by smashing Dixons' window and stealing a telly, and their attempts to "eat the rich" involve them setting fire to the local newsagents.

This ain't like Toxteth or Brixton back in the 80s, this ain't like the Bradford race riots, this is bogus bullshit and criminality.

 

[Your Funny Uncle]

I didn't say it was the same as previous riots. I said it was more complex than people want to believe. I include in this those who want to put it all down to anti-police sentiment just as much as those who say it's pure unadultarated greed and criminality.

 

[Prolescum]

Alright tossers, I only popped in for a mo, but the silliness in this thread must be commented on.

For a start.....the long and the short of what Ken said was "isn't it a shame that this beautiful old building has been destroyed, and how ironic considering it survived all those Luftwaffe bombing raids". There was no hyperbole in what Ken said, and if you call that equating the rioters with the Luftwaffe, then I humbly suggest that you're just looking for an argument.

I believe it was the caption, not Kenandkids being targeted for that. It certainly was in my later post where I pointed out the hyperbolic nature of the usage.

Next......yes "Blitzkrieg" is not the name of any particular conflict, or period during WWII, it is rather a description of a military tactic, and the "blitz-" (lightning) part of it refers to the high speed at which operations are conducted, and men and armaments are moved. So a slightly more elaborate translation would be "war conducted at the speed of lightning."

"The Blitz" got it's name because us Brits are a bunch of ignorant twats who are always calling things by the wrong bloody name!!
Some bloody cockneys heard the term "Blitzkrieg", completely misunderstood it, and misapplied it, and outside of London it was called "air raids", "bombing raids", etc.....

Yes, the terms aren't interchangeable.

I won't respond to the rest as I'd rather not speculate much at this point beyond noting that it seems Squawk's view reflects the current consensus, although I'm sure Kenandkids will accuse me of quote-mining

 

[kenandkids]

although I'm sure Kenandkids will accuse me of quote-mining

Troll, troll, troll, your boat...

 

[Prolescum]

If you turn left at the dock, there's a sense of humour awaiting your arrival...

 

[Welshidiot]

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-london-14459516

There is no evidence Mark Duggan opened fire at police before being shot dead by a firearms officer, the Independent Police Complaints Commission has said.

Interesting development in the investigation. Odd how it's become almost, if not entirely, irrelevant to the rioting.

 

[kenandkids]

Amazon is doing quite well in this whole mess. As of this minute sales of aluminium bats are up 6000% in the UK and police batons are nearly as popular.

http://www.businessinsider.com/sales-of-aluminum-bats-on-amazonuk-up-over-5000-as-riots-continue-2011-8

 

[ArthurWilborn]

Here's one reason:

http://www.ft.com/cms/s/0/4bf40396-39b5-11e0-8dba-00144feabdc0.html#axzz1Ua5KdHJy

"The unemployment rate reached 20.5 per cent among economically active youths aged 16 to 24 (in early 2011)"

 

[australopithecus]

The unemployment card doesn't fly. This has nothing to do with unemployment, this is about morons jumping on any excuse to get away with herd criminality. I was unemployed for almost a year and a half, at no point did I feel like looting a HD TV and setting fire to buildings.

 

[Your Funny Uncle]

There are thousands of kids rioting. Are they all automata with exactly the same motivations? Are the ones who are looting always the same as those clashing with the police? Does their economic and social situation play truly no role at all in all cases? Sorry but sweeping it all away with "they are all just opportunistic criminals" smacks to me of oversimplification. Obviously such opportunistic criminality was a major factor but why is it a case of one or the other?

 

[Case]

Interesting tidbit:

...here's a sad truth, expressed by a Londoner when asked by a television reporter: Is rioting the correct way to express your discontent?

"Yes," said the young man. "You wouldn't be talking to me now if we didn't riot, would you?"

The TV reporter from Britain's ITV had no response. So the young man pressed his advantage. "Two months ago we marched to Scotland Yard, more than 2,000 of us, all blacks, and it was peaceful and calm and you know what? Not a word in the press. Last night a bit of rioting and looting and look around you."

Eavesdropping from among the onlookers, I looked around. A dozen TV crews and newspaper reporters interviewing the young men everywhere.

http://worldblog.msnbc.msn.com/_news/2011/08/07/7292281-the-sad-truth-behind-london-riot

 

[Welshidiot]

Interesting tidbit:

...here's a sad truth, expressed by a Londoner when asked by a television reporter: Is rioting the correct way to express your discontent?

"Yes," said the young man. "You wouldn't be talking to me now if we didn't riot, would you?"

The TV reporter from Britain's ITV had no response. So the young man pressed his advantage. "Two months ago we marched to Scotland Yard, more than 2,000 of us, all blacks, and it was peaceful and calm and you know what? Not a word in the press. Last night a bit of rioting and looting and look around you."

Eavesdropping from among the onlookers, I looked around. A dozen TV crews and newspaper reporters interviewing the young men everywhere.

http://worldblog.msnbc.msn.com/_news/2011/08/07/7292281-the-sad-truth-behind-london-riot

As far as I'm concerned that redefines the phrase "not a word in the press" to an unacceptable degree....: http://www.guardian.co.uk/uk/2011/mar/17/smiley-culture-stabbed-heart-postmortem

There's the "not a word" in the Guardian, and they weren't the only newspaper that ran the story, and it was on tv and radio too. "Not a word" my arse....


Here are some more interesting titbits in a video about Smiley Culture, and the aforementioned march on Scotland Yard:

@ 3:50-4:19 the presenter starts talking about how "the black community needs to stand up.........and let people know that we're no longer prepared to accept the police's excuses for black people dying in police custody....."

He mentions a few names and I want to focus on two of them: 1) Damilola Taylor,....here's the wiki on Damilola Taylor, and I followed the case at the time and can vouch for the accuracy of this account: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Death_of_Damilola_Taylor#Death
After you've read that report perhaps you can tell me what the fuck it's got to do with police corruption, incompetence, racism, or any of the other factors mentioned so far. (NOTE: Damilola Taylor did not die in police custody)

2) Stephen Lawrence: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Murder_of_Stephen_Lawrence
Again, read the article. Yes it seems practically indisputable that London police were either complicit or incompetent over the murder of Stephen Lawrence, but the black community did indeed "stand up", and continue to "stand up" over the issue. Also the case hasn't been ignored by the police and courts either, in fact it's still being pursued now. (NOTE: Stephen Lawrence did not die in police custody)



Getting back to the current situation,.....one particular factor that makes this very different from previous public order disturbances is the broad scale of the rioting, ie: cities throughout England are seeing it happen,....in most of the previous incidents (if not all) the violence has been restricted to the communities affected by the issues at hand, whereas in this case the violence is occurring in communities that have nothing to do with the initial events, and in towns where the problems of social deprivation and poverty are nowhere near as bad as in some London boroughs.

YFU has mentioned a few times that he thinks people are guilty of over-simplification in regards to the current rioting. Well I invite YFU and all the rest of you to come up with a plausible explanation for what we're seeing, one without any holes in.
It might not be possible to achieve a definitive answer, but I have a strong feeling that we will probably eliminate a lot of erroneous ideas along the way.

 

[Your Funny Uncle]

My whole point point is that there is not "an explanation."

These are thousands of kids. How can they all have exactly the same motivations? That makes no sense. Surely some are motivated by greed, and some by the lust for violence and the powerful feeling of smashing things up and fighting, but that doesn't mean that some don't feel a genuine grievance against the system. There are countless stories of kids being harassed by the police just for the clothes they wear or the colour of their skin, and similarly of feeling disenfranchised and without hope for the future. I don't fit that demographic so I can't say how bad it is. Can you?

None of it addresses possible underlying causes: Why are there kids who are willing to do this? Is it just the normal percentage that will turn to such actions if given chance ? Is that number augmented by those that feel disenfranchised and without hope, so they don't feel they have anything to lose? Is the education system to blame? Are the parents to blame? Is it lack of support? Is it lack of discipline? Is it our consumerist society making kids think their lives will be better with some new trainers and a 42" TV? Or is it a combination of some or all these factors in varying degrees depending on the kid in question?

Is the widespread nature of these incidents indicative of fundamental differences in motivation compared to other riots, or maybe of the faster spread of information and ideas facilitated by modern communications technology having changed the game and possible scale?

I've seen many theories bandied about and to be frank I've seen no solid evidence either way, just loads of people professing to know the answer. Societies are such amazingly complex things that I don't think we're anywhere near understanding them. Many have theories based on their intuitions and "common sense" but they just don't seem to hold up in the long run.

 

[televator]

Sorry I kinda disappeared after posting, but this whole thing about the riots is much more complicated than I could comprehend initially.

I'm still not quite sure what I can reasonably say about it, other than to say I'm sorry for anyone whose livelihood has been negatively affected by this and that this level of seemingly indiscriminant destruction cannot be justified.

 

[Welshidiot]

@ YFU

I'll get back to you when I can, sorry for the delay.




@ ALL

Here's a short but sweet article that you might find interesting: http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/magazine-14483149

 

[Welshidiot]

"England riots: Dangers behind false rumours" http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-14490693

 

[Your Funny Uncle]

"England riots: Dangers behind false rumours" http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-14490693

But on the other hand... http://www.guardian.co.uk/science/the-lay-scientist/2011/aug/09/1

 

[Welshidiot]

"England riots: Dangers behind false rumours" http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-14490693

But on the other hand... http://www.guardian.co.uk/science/the-lay-scientist/2011/aug/09/1

From the BBC article:

Police themselves used Twitter to reassure and calm the public, pointing out that there was no trouble and they were not at risk.

What's with "but on the other hand"?
I don't know what you're getting at YFU.