Conspiracy Theories and Me

[Blog of Reason]

Discussion thread for the blog entry "Conspiracy Theories and Me" by Th1sWasATriumph.

Permalink: http://blog.leagueofreason.org.uk/reason/325/

 

[Fr0zenLegend]

I disagree on your thought about that the moon landing might have been faked and that it could still be announced that it was fake.
There is so much evidence that it was real its not possible to prove it wrong, for example the mirrors that were placed by the astronauts that we can use today to measure the distance between the earth and the moon.

I get your point though, but the moon landing has too much evidence.

 

[Th1sWasATriumph]

I disagree on your thought about that the moon landing might have been faked and that it could still be announced that it was fake.
There is so much evidence that it was real its not possible to prove it wrong, for example the mirrors that were placed by the astronauts that we can use today to measure the distance between the earth and the moon.

I get your point though, but the moon landing has too much evidence.

You clearly don't get my point, as my point was simply that I could understand the motivations behind faking things like the moon landing, were it ever hypothetically to be discovered as false. I stated, very clearly, that I do not believe it was faked.

 

[ImprobableJoe]

Why the attack on "American patriots"?!?!?! You Brits are the ones who tricked America into becoming a military superpower, in order to transfer your military budget to healthcare and human services. You're the ones who had aliens land in your fields, leaving crop circles! Then you sent SAS troops around the world with boards on their feet making fake crop circles to cover it up!

Damn you UK!!! :lol:

 

[Fr0zenLegend]

You clearly don't get my point, as my point was simply that I could understand the motivations behind faking things like the moon landing, were it ever hypothetically to be discovered as false. I stated, very clearly, that I do not believe it was faked.

ah True, but isn't that really where all conspiracy theories originate from? every event that has some mystery and motivation has a conspiracy theory about it.

 

[Th1sWasATriumph]

Why the attack on "American patriots"?!?!?! You Brits are the ones who tricked America into becoming a military superpower, in order to transfer your military budget to healthcare and human services. You're the ones who had aliens land in your fields, leaving crop circles! Then you sent SAS troops around the world with boards on their feet making fake crop circles to cover it up!

Damn you UK!!! :lol:

Damn us to hell!

 

[Jotto999]

I see eye to eye with what th1swasatriumph was getting at. While I may not think certain conspiracy theories are true, I think suspicion is often valid, as long as it's not ridiculous. The fluoride water one for me is a bit much, but some I do feel a suspicious about.

For example, the guy who owned the WTCs got himself a nice big insurance package on them in a pretty short time scale just before 9/11. Like, a few months or weeks or something like that. Does it mean 9/11 was planned? Well no, but it's really fishy if you ask me. Like a guy's wife found dead at the bottom of a flight of stairs a few weeks after he got life insurance for her.

Also, on that day all the air defence was away on a "test flight" ordered by Dick Cheney. On any other day those planes would have been intercepted within minutes. How would terrorists have known that?

But anyways, I agree that the term "conspiracy theory" has developed an unnecessary pejorative, and while some theories may be complete bogus, they should not all be dismissed as baseless nutjob ideas, despite whatever others may be so.

 

[Comrade Jonny]

Vodafone and the KKK

It is quite obvious to see that the mobile Telecommunications network: Vodafone is in kahoots with the Ku Klux Klan. I mean, just look at the the Vodafone logo and the centre of the KKK cross! It's obvious to see!
Vodafone logo
KKK cross
IT IS PLAIN TO SEE THAT WE'RE BEING DECEIVED BY THE KLAN!

________________________________________________________________

I didn't realise the irony, until now, that is that people who are into Conspiracy Theory are also likely to be Right-Wing loonies and therefore would support the KKK! xD

 

[Möbiµs]

Nice blog triumph. Even if you necessarily don't believe in conspiracy theories, you cannot claim that your government wouldn't do such a thing against its people or lie to the masses. The Gulf of Tonkin incident, for instance, showed us that it is very plausible.

 

[Ozymandyus]

We shouldn't allow them to be called theories or theorists though.

Conspiracy hypothesists?

I'm of the opinion that the vast majority of such theories are complete crap. People who question every official story are bound to get one right every once in a while, but does that justify their nuttiness or their method? Is it any better than saying its worth while to try to predict lottery numbers because occasionally you get it right?

I don't trust my government for the most part, but I think a far more likely answer to 'who would run a plane into the world trade center' is the people who have tried to do that exact same thing in the past, and have threatened to try again. Does it really have anything to do with how much I trust me government?

 

[ImprobableJoe]

We shouldn't allow them to be called theories or theorists though.

Conspiracy hypothesists?

I'm of the opinion that the vast majority of such theories are complete crap. People who question every official story are bound to get one right every once in a while, but does that justify their nuttiness or their method? Is it any better than saying its worth while to try to predict lottery numbers because occasionally you get it right?

I don't trust my government for the most part, but I think a far more likely answer to 'who would run a plane into the world trade center' is the people who have tried to do that exact same thing in the past, and have threatened to try again. Does it really have anything to do with how much I trust me government?

I think you've got it just about exactly backwards, based on more commonly held, non-scientific definitions for "hypothesis" and "theory." I think normal sane folks, in which category I will generously include you and Th1sWasATriumph( :lol: ), start out with a conspiracy hypothesis when they perceive something fishy going on. I'm not sure there's anything wrong with it exactly, since we all do it on some level based on reasonable assumptions.

The conspiracy theorists take it a step further... using a less-scientific definition of the word "theory" in this case. Instead of creating a hypothesis and testing it against the evidence, they skip that step and go straight to making up a "theory" based on not much evidence at all, that falls in line with whatever preconceived biases they were already carrying. They create intricate connections, invest the hypothetical actors with motives, and generally create a giant web of fiction out of not much more than the mere suspicion that something's not right about the official story. Where sane folks stop at "... but we don't know the whole story," conspiracy theorists CREATE the whole story, out of thin air and little else.

 

[Gimble]

I'm sure most have heard the follow quote many times...

"Extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence." - Sagan

As for the bitterness towards America, it's really getting old.

 

[ImprobableJoe]

As for the bitterness towards America, it's really getting old.

Not really... Americans find new and interesting ways to be total idiots on the international stage every day. Moronic Americans want to impose themselves on Iran and its contested election. None of our goddamned business, and we should stay out of it... but we don't. Iranians SHOULD be bitter when Americans intrude on their internal affairs.

 

[Ozymandyus]

I think you've got it just about exactly backwards, based on more commonly held, non-scientific definitions for "hypothesis" and "theory." I think normal sane folks, in which category I will generously include you and Th1sWasATriumph( :lol: ), start out with a conspiracy hypothesis when they perceive something fishy going on. I'm not sure there's anything wrong with it exactly, since we all do it on some level based on reasonable assumptions.

The conspiracy theorists take it a step further... using a less-scientific definition of the word "theory" in this case. Instead of creating a hypothesis and testing it against the evidence, they skip that step and go straight to making up a "theory" based on not much evidence at all, that falls in line with whatever preconceived biases they were already carrying. They create intricate connections, invest the hypothetical actors with motives, and generally create a giant web of fiction out of not much more than the mere suspicion that something's not right about the official story. Where sane folks stop at "... but we don't know the whole story," conspiracy theorists CREATE the whole story, out of thin air and little else.

I'm pretty sure THIS is exactly backwards. A hypothesis isn't more of a theory just because of it's completeness or the amount of details. The fact that they expand their hypothesis by adding more and more hypotheticals to it does not suddenly make the intricate web of nonsense a theory.

It's exactly these sort of abuses of the word theory that lead people to be able to say something is 'just a theory'. In any case they need their name changed to something like conspiracy nutters, or crazy mc-poopypants.

Anyway, I do agree with the general sentiment of skepticism and its usefulness - but I think that some level of trust has usefulness too. If we question everything everyone says and require incontrovertible proof, we are going to be spending a lot of our time not doing anything and waiting for absolute proof - which is damn hard to come by.

When a dude is standing outside my car with a raised crowbar, I don't sit there and think - could he just be getting that out of his truck and decided he needed to stretch, maybe because he didn't get enough sleep last night? I better not say anything until I have incontrovertible proof that he is breaking into my car...

 

[lightbulbsun88]

I don't even find your "plausible" reasons plausible. All of them require a massive number of people to keep things airtight for a very long period of time. As history has shown us even the smallest of conspiracies can't keep anything airtight. It's one thing to be cynical, it's another to have a completely dismal outlook on human motives and compassion.

 

[Th1sWasATriumph]

I don't even find your "plausible" reasons plausible. All of them require a massive number of people to keep things airtight for a very long period of time. As history has shown us even the smallest of conspiracies can't keep anything airtight.

I always thought that was a pretty naive argument, the whole "someone would find out" card. Why? Sure, the conspiracy theories that we KNOW about are obviously not airtight - but the ones that are airtight are either not known about or suspected but uncomfirmed. Why wouldn't the US Government be able to fake and cover up something like the moon landing? Once again, I don't believe it was faked, but is there any reason why they COULDN'T? Ignoring the personnel involved that would need to keep quiet, and I'm sure even that could be accomplished pretty easily.

 

[e2iPi]

I don't even find your "plausible" reasons plausible. All of them require a massive number of people to keep things airtight for a very long period of time. As history has shown us even the smallest of conspiracies can't keep anything airtight. It's one thing to be cynical, it's another to have a completely dismal outlook on human motives and compassion.

You obviously don't understand conspiracy! The BIG conspiracies make sure that some SMALL, BOGUS conspiracies get found out. That makes it look like nobody can keep a conspiracy going, while THEY just laugh at how easily people are fooled!
Want proof? I've got proof, I thought about this for all of 90 seconds and then typed it on the INTERNET! It's on the INTERNET, so it must be true!

Wow, that was actually painful to write! How do these people do it?

-1

 

[Gimble]

Not really... Americans find new and interesting ways to be total idiots on the international stage every day. Moronic Americans want to impose themselves on Iran and its contested election. None of our goddamned business, and we should stay out of it... but we don't. Iranians SHOULD be bitter when Americans intrude on their internal affairs.

Is that what you want to believe?

There are plenty of us that would like to see the government keep its nose out of other countries' business as much as possible.

We are staying out of Iran's problem. It's up to them and their neighboring countries to deal with it until America is pulled in (though they are trying to lure us in).

It's not as black and white as you'd like to bias your statement against America. Give it a rest.

 

[ImprobableJoe]

Is that what you want to believe?

There are plenty of us that would like to see the government keep its nose out of other countries' business as much as possible.

We are staying out of Iran's problem. It's up to them and their neighboring countries to deal with it until America is pulled in (though they are trying to lure us in).

It's not as black and white as you'd like to bias your statement against America. Give it a rest.

Give telling the truth a rest? Not fucking likely!

You read it as "black and white" in order to make it easier for you to lie... pretty sad of you. Why don't YOU give it a rest, and try honesty instead? I'll give you a dollar!

 

[Gimble]

Give telling the truth a rest? Not fucking likely!

Joe, half the time you're as bad as the creationists. Nice attempt at insinuating the false. You can be quite manipulative and VERY biased.

I requested you to give your America bashing a rest. Bash the decisions made, bash the actions taken, but you will not understand reality if you paint the picture so black and white for yourself. America is not all about the few negatives you find.

It's like how creationists like to take a scientific concept that was not 100% fully accurate and needed some tweeking to be the most accurate known and then toss out all science as being "wrong."

There is a lot of good with America. As for the bad, there is no perfect country and many of us in America would like to see us improve on a great many things. There are many idiots as well - but how is that different than anywhere else? I'd be willing to bet that a great deal of the world has far more idiocy than America. We're just in the spot light due to being the top world power (insert your bitterness here).

You read it as "black and white" in order to make it easier for you to lie... pretty sad of you. Why don't YOU give it a rest, and try honesty instead? I'll give you a dollar!

What the hell is the lie? I didn't even make a statement that could be judged as a lie. I simply stated that America isn't as bad as you like to bash it. That's my opinion.

You're getting pretty manipulative there buddy. And nice attempt at condescending.

I know nothing other than honesty.

It's easy for scoundrels to pick one item to blame everything on. For you, you like to say it's America's fault just like how so many liked to bash one man - Bush. The President really isn't that powerful in America as much as people like to believe.

If you really want to seek out truth, you might want to do a bit more listening - all I see from you is your own blabber and bashing. When is the last time you learned something?