Communism

[XC(A)libur]

Death has everything in the world to do with communism vs capitalism. Death has everything to do with everything.

Just to clear it up. You're saying that capitalism produced the Tobacco industry which is the leading cause of death in the U.S.?

If so, I'm sure someone would argue against you based on the history of tobacco. On the other hand, touché.

No, all I meant was death has much to do with life.

But actually, the tobacco industry first appeared during the European settlement of the Americas and the genocide and mass slavery of the natives. All together about 100 Million people were killed as the worst genocide in all of history. They were forced to work in the tobacco fields as slaves, which is a forced use of onself as a commodity, which is essentially a practice of capitalism. The tobacco industry saw its tremendous uprise during the Atlantic slave trade which killed about 35 million people The tobacco fields were prevalent in the Africas and Americas. Again, the trading of forced human labor as a commodity. An essential practice of free-market capitalism.

 

[ribbonwing]

ever heard of thezeitgeistmovement.com?

we're the activist arm of the venus project, an organization that advocates the use of the scientific method for social concern. the solution that they present is very similar to communism, with a few major differences. for one thing, we would not use money. we think it is possible to create abundance, so that if you desire something, we can give it to you. food can be mass produced via methods such as permaculture and hydroponics. material abundance can be assured by using high quality methods of production, so that items do not break as easily and much smaller amounts of waste are produced in the process. the amount consumed can be further reduced by "socailizing?(not sure if this is the right term)" systems such as transportation. for example, there is a form of maglev train that can travel at 4000 mph. it uses a small fraction of the energy cars on a conventional highway use, and can be built for considerably less. et3.com it is also possible to create cars that could drive themselves. these cars would use a combination of gps and sonar to avoid obstacles and navigate. such a car could, for example, drive itself to you, take you to your destination, and then drive off to pick up someone else. in this society, you would not need to work. jobs are becoming automate at an ever increasing rate. it is not unlikely that such a society could be run by as little as .0002% of the population.

thersw a lot more, but its two in the morning. im going to bed. you can find answers to most of your questions at the website, theres a forum, several pages of understandings, two movies, zeitgeist addendum and the orientatriojn guide. theres the bi-weekly radiio asddress, three episodes so far, and a ventrelo voice chat server(thats unofficial, you can find it in the forums.

peace, love and goodnight.

 

[Ozymandyus]

'maglev trains built for considerably less'. yeah... right. building a road out of electromagnets, housed by an airtight tunnel, would CLEARLY be a lot cheaper than building a road out of crushed rock.

But in general, I agree with the principles of venus project. Go Go technocracy!

 

[irmerk]

I think I agree with Ozymandyus when he agrees with the principles of the venus project mildly revealed by ribbonwing - like he said, I doubt he did it even near complete justice. Though, again, I agree with Ozy with the ease of such a project, or whatever you want to call it, not being so easy until technology progresses much, much more. Very plausible, just not right now, I would think.

 

[ribbonwing]

theres a video of this on youtube. and yes, it is cheaper than building freeways.

evacuated tube transport

 

[desertedcities]

Reminds me of some lines in Tenacious D's "City Hall:"

The second decree: no more pollution, no more car exhaust,
or ocean dumpage. From now on, we will travel in tubes!

Get the scientists working on the tube technology, immediately.
(Tube technology.) Chop, chop, let's go.

The ETT sounds good when they put it that way. It sounds good, indeed. Let us get the workers building the tube technology.

 

[richi1173]

But actually, the tobacco industry first appeared during the European settlement of the Americas and the genocide and mass slavery of the natives. All together about 100 Million people were killed as the worst genocide in all of history. They were forced to work in the tobacco fields as slaves, which is a forced use of onself as a commodity, which is essentially a practice of capitalism. The tobacco industry saw its tremendous uprise during the Atlantic slave trade which killed about 35 million people The tobacco fields were prevalent in the Africas and Americas. Again, the trading of forced human labor as a commodity. An essential practice of free-market capitalism.

Your comparing apples and oranges. Forced labor is against capitalism. But, lets face it, you will use any tactic, like creationists, to demonize your opponent.

"Capitalism is an economic system in which wealth, and the means of producing wealth, are privately owned. Through capitalism, the land, labor, and capital are owned, operated, and traded, without force or fraud, by private individuals either singly or jointly, and investments, distribution, income, production, pricing and supply of goods, commodities and services are determined by voluntary private decision in a market economy. A distinguishing feature of capitalism is that each person owns his or her own labor and therefore is allowed to sell the use of it to employers."

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Capitalism

 

[ImprobableJoe]

"Capitalism is an economic system in which wealth, and the means of producing wealth, are privately owned. Through capitalism, the land, labor, and capital are owned, operated, and traded, without force or fraud, by private individuals either singly or jointly, and investments, distribution, income, production, pricing and supply of goods, commodities and services are determined by voluntary private decision in a market economy. A distinguishing feature of capitalism is that each person owns his or her own labor and therefore is allowed to sell the use of it to employers."

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Capitalism

So, that means you are a hearty supporter of labor unions? You're a big fan of government regulations? You're against Chambers of Commerce, and against the stock market and any other artificial manipulations of the market?

 

[richi1173]

So, that means you are a hearty supporter of labor unions?

I'm pro labor union but, in truth, they have gotten very power hungry. The essence of labor unions are to protect individual workers by collectively banning and fighting together against injustices committed by the employer. I would argue that it is a part of capitalism - to protect the labor rights of individuals.

You're a big fan of government regulations?

Yes. Government regulations deal with important social questions. For example, if a developer dumps tons of waste into a national park, its the government role to put regulation so that it does not happen. Why? Because the park is a public space, owned by all the citizens of a particular nation, and its our right and duty to defend our communal property.

You're against Chambers of Commerce, and against the stock market and any other artificial manipulations of the market?

The stock market is just were people trade property. Its one of the last semblances of a barter economy. I'm in no way shape or form against the Chamber of Commerce because it is like labor unions. Its individuals banning together to make their voice heard.

 

[ImprobableJoe]

The stock market is just where people trade property. Its one of the last semblances of a barter economy. I'm in no way shape or form against the Chamber of Commerce because it is like labor unions. Its individuals banning together to make their voice heard.

No, it is where the value of property is manipulated and warped until it becomes completely divorced from reality, creating bubbles that crash economies.

 

[richi1173]

No, it is where the value of property is manipulated and warped until it becomes completely divorced from reality, creating bubbles that crash economies.

That would be considered collective fraud if you ask me but, again, in essence, like labor unions, it is a natural extension of rights of property. If you and I own a stock, we could always trade it.

However, there's always government to stop this collective fraud from happening though (The Fed).

 

[ImprobableJoe]

That would be considered collective fraud if you ask me but, again, in essence, like labor unions, it is a natural extension of rights of property. If you and I own a stock, we could always trade it.

However, there's always government to stop this collective fraud from happening though (The Fed).

What's the phrase? "It isn't a defect, it is a feature"? Something like that. Fraud is an automatic component of capitalism, especially when there is a stock market involved. As far as I'm concerned, the stock market should be abolished... because it is complete nonsense. It is a market based on absolutely nothing, where the highest profits are gained by destroying companies.

 

[richi1173]

What's the phrase? "It isn't a defect, it is a feature"? Something like that. Fraud is an automatic component of capitalism, especially when there is a stock market involved. As far as I'm concerned, the stock market should be abolished... because it is complete nonsense. It is a market based on absolutely nothing, where the highest profits are gained by destroying companies.

I would have to disagree. Fraud went on before capitalism was even conceived. I would argue that it is a fault of human nature.

The stock market is just like any market. If you and me have ownership in a company, we can sell it or buy it. The market for company ownership is the stock market. Its just a name, not an institution. Unlike other markets though, its a barter market. Were you and I can speculate and debate about the price of a particular piece of company ownership. That is were the problem arises.

 

[XC(A)libur]

Your comparing apples and oranges. Forced labor is against capitalism. But, lets face it, you will use any tactic, like creationists, to demonize your opponent.

"Capitalism is an economic system in which wealth, and the means of producing wealth, are privately owned. Through capitalism, the land, labor, and capital are owned, operated, and traded, without force or fraud, by private individuals either singly or jointly, and investments, distribution, income, production, pricing and supply of goods, commodities and services are determined by voluntary private decision in a market economy. A distinguishing feature of capitalism is that each person owns his or her own labor and therefore is allowed to sell the use of it to employers."

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Capitalism

No, not at all. In fact the basis of a capitalist system is ran on wage slavery. The free-market permits the extent of forced labor we saw in the 1800's, capitalism as an economic system in the US did develop from the free-market.

 

[richi1173]

No, not at all. In fact the basis of a capitalist system is ran on wage slavery. The free-market permits the extent of forced labor we saw in the 1800's, capitalism as an economic system in the US did develop from the free-market.

Wage slavery? Forced Labor? Its just a facade covering up the real truth - these people in question cannot make it because of their own bad characteristics. Yet, society has provided them all the tools necessary to succeed - public education ect.

Furthermore, as you did not read, the labor in a capitalist system is owned by the person in question. He/she can sell it to an employer or take it back. The forced labor that you describe is just the furthest extent that many people can go on the "road to riches".

For example, take John D. Rockefeller. He was under this, "wage slavery" system from 16 until 19. After which set of time, he started his own petroleum company with a partner. He grew to be one if not the richest man in history. His father did not own great estates or a great corporation, he was a traveling salesman.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/John_D._Rockefeller

So you see, you are just providing excuses for their inability to succeed. Even in the 1800 there were men who had nothing and ended up with everything.

 

[darthrender2010]

i hate the society of the us and the uk, where big corperations screw people over with rediculously big profit margins so a few people at the top can become filthy rich.

I'm not sure if this has been said yet or not as there are many more pages than I am willing to read at this point, but after seeing this I had to comment.

The profit margin, which is net income/revenue, shows how for every dollar of sales it makes what percent ends up in income. Currently, the corporate profit margin is hovering around 5.8%. That means that for every dollar that it makes, only 5.8 cents are actually falling through all the costs unscathed. The profit margins are not ridiculously high, they are ridiculously low. For the last 25 years the average is about 8.3%. This is compared to small businesses which have an average of 20-40% profit margins.

So no, you can't complain that their margins are high, because they aren't. They're more than 40% lower than most other businesses.