Christmas attacks the Holiday

[xman]

My cousin, a really wonderful guy, just got offended at me for calling it a Holiday Tree on facebook.

xman declares all Christmas Trees are Holiday Trees because they're here for the holidays, but not all Holiday Trees are Christmas Trees because they're not all here for Christmas. Here's how it has gone so far.

GM No, you are wrong sir. I just went and checked my living room. There is a Christmas tree, but not a holiday tree.

xman Then your holiday tree is a Christmas Tree. Mine's just a Holiday Tree.

GM Are you aware how offensive your remarks are to me? Is it your intent to cause offense?

GM The one and only bumper sticker on my car is this: http://candidchatter.files.wordpress.com/2009/08/coexist2.jpg?w=300&h=300
I love all people and accept all people of all religions. But that does not mean I accept someone, anyone, attempting to minimize Christianity, which is what I see you doing.

xman Why should you be offended at MY nomenclature? Surely you can be inclusive of that too. I am permitted to call it a holiday tree if I want can I not? It's a tree for the holidays. You are free to call your tree for the holidays what you like. It's ridiculous to me that you should take offense. As ridiculous as a Muslim taking offense at a non-offensive illustration of Mohamed made by a non-Muslim. I am not bound by their dogma. I am not bound by yours either. That is not meant for offense, but for freedom of speech. I stand against censorship and that is what I see happening.

Concerning that image he linked to as his bumper sticker, I made this image a few weeks ago, but haven't done anything with it because I figure it probably is offensive. What do you all think?

X

 

[borrofburi]

GM Are you aware how offensive your remarks are to me? Is it your intent to cause offense?

GM The one and only bumper sticker on my car is this: http://candidchatter.files.wordpress.com/2009/08/coexist2.jpg?w=300&h=300
I love all people and accept all people of all religions. But that does not mean I accept someone, anyone, attempting to minimize Christianity, which is what I see you doing.

What a jerk... I suppose I'm just grumpy and tired of this "I accept everyone unless I don't" sort of attitude, here seen by the "I accept people unless they refuse to submit to my dominant position" response. I love how the coexist is primarily abrahamic and mainstream, I've always (not my first time encountering this bumper sticker) thought the message of the bumper sticker was "we only like these people".

 

[mandangalo18]

XMAN that bumper sticker you made is FTW

 

[xman]

My Aunt weighs in on round two.

GM Hanukkah is a festival of the Jewish faith. I would be offended if you or anyone called it an 8 day candle lighting ceremony, and that all menorahs were simply candle holders.

Ramadan is a ceremony of the Muslim faith. It would be offensive if one were to refer to it as a month long day light weight loss plan.

It would be wrong to reduce those important religious celebrations be minimizing them through "nomenclature".... See More

It is offensive to me and to others when people find it important to try to change what is a Christian religious celebration into a secular, commercial day by denying the fundamental nature of the day.

Do I see post from you denigrating the Muslim faith? No.

Any attacks on the Jews? Heck no.

Then why Christians, X?

I asked two questions of you.

1. Are you aware how offensive your remarks are to me?

2. Is it your intent to cause offense?

I would invite you to answer those questions honestly.

xman 1. Yes, I am aware that you are needlessly taking offense at MY choice of naming the tree what I like.
2. No, it is my intent to assert my right of that freedom.

I think I have been clear on that.

Your faith is not singled out. I have shown images of Mohamed for that same purpose. I would stand against all such censorship as any freedom loving person should.

That tree was a pagan image first, the feast a Saturnalian, the birth that of Mithras before that of Christ. Noone has a monopoly on these things. There is no "fundamental nature of the day", but you are free to celebrate how you wish.

I'm saddened and disappointed that so many who call themselves Christians these days are intolerant on this simple, ridiculous point. I have wished people 'Happy Holidays' for more years now than I care to count, to be inclusive of others even when I was a Christian, but only recently have I gotten flack for it.

Put yourself in my shoes. If I said I was offended that you pray to Jesus, what would you say? You'd say I have no reason to be and go about exercising your rights. Can I have a Holiday Tree or not?

GM Then I am answered.

RM GM, your comments are dead on. No one complains about a menorah, or denigrates Ramadan, that would be terribly un-P C. Why is it not un-P C for some one to decry Christianity?

X, your are absolutely correct. You have every right to be and declare yourself a jackass. That right is guaranteed to you by a constitution based on Judeo-Christian doctrine.

xman Do I not deserve the same decency of an answer, GM?
And for the record, All menorah are candle holders, but not all candle holders are menorah. There's no mystery in that. There shouldn't be about the tree either.

RM, Ad Hominem is never a good way to enter a discussion. I don't need to tell you that. That constitution (to which I am also not... See More bound, but respect) is based on secular humanist values, the founding fathers were clear about that, but if we keep going down this road the discussion will never end.

I may need to back up my coment about the founding fathers. Can anyone help me with a link?

 

[xman]

XMAN that bumper sticker you made is FTW

ty. Feel free to distribute. I waive all copyright.

What a jerk... I suppose I'm just grumpy and tired of this "I accept everyone unless I don't" sort of attitude, here seen by the "I accept people unless they refuse to submit to my dominant position" response. .

I believe the term is 'holier than thou'.

 

[xman]

Round three. I tactfully retreated from the constitutional question. She's a lawyer after all.

RM I was referring to the Canadian constitution, not the US, in case you are confused, but maybe you don't feel bound by that one either. In any case, both the US and Canadian constitutions were founded on Judeo-Christian doctrine, and both sets of founding fathers were equally clear on that.

xman My bad on the constitutions. We have some things in common there.

xman BTW, I didn't complain about the tree. I said he can call it what he likes.

GM X, you can celebrate Dec 25 anyway you want to. And you can be certain that in no way will I be publicly saying your way is wrong. Even if I have the right to do so.

And I would not term respect of other as censorship.

In any case, I think you have made your point. You are aware that you are offensive but you do not care. It seems important to you that you assert your right to free speech. So be it.... See More

I am answered.

xman I'm a bit confused. Are you inferring that I think it is wrong for you to celebrate your own way, use the term Christmas tree or that I intend for you to be offended? Let me be clear that none of this is true in case there is doubt.

You seem to say that I can celebrate as I wish so long as you can take offense by what I do personally. I don't mean to inflame you, but this doesn't make sense.

 

[Aught3]

My analysis is that GM misunderstood your opening comment, possibly he only read the first seven words before forming his opinion. That's the fairest interpretation I can come up with otherwise he seems like a bit of a jerk.

RM's point about Christianity is easily countered by pointing out the dominance and ubiquity of that particular religion in Western countries, hence it receives the bulk of the criticism. You could also point out that no one tries to force everyone else to participate in the religious festivals of Ramadan or Hunakkah though I'm sure they would love if they had the numbers to boycott shops who say 'Happy Holidays' or were in charge of cable opinutainment shows. Also I consider Hunakkah a much worse holiday to celebrate than Christmas, I'm glad I only have to put up with crappy displays of mangers here.

 

[xman]

My analysis is that GM misunderstood your opening comment, possibly he only read the first seven words before forming his opinion. That's the fairest interpretation I can come up with otherwise he seems like a bit of a jerk.

He's not actually, he's a really wonderful guy. This is not like him any other day of the year. Frankly I'm surprised at his response, but here we are again, whenever one treads on a sacred cow, reason goes out the window.

 

[5810Singer]

How about pointing out to him that "Christmas trees" are about as Christian as woad, kissing under the mistletoe, and witchcraft.

The "Christmas tree" has been coopted by some Christians of a northern European background, and it's roots (no pun intended) run straight back into pagan nature worship.

After pointing this out ask him which section of the Bible covers "Christmas trees" and their sacred significance.

 

[borrofburi]

Ah I see, he's from the "I have a right to be offended at anything you say" school of thought. I mean, his "you are aware that you're offensive and don't care" is a bit silly, I mean I had someone get really offended at me because I did not like apple pie, and apparently I am a horrible person for not liking apple pie, and I am aware I'm an offensive dick for not liking apple pie but I don't care... I mean, sure, fine, I'm aware you take offense that I don't like apple pie, but I am simply not going to start liking it because you get terribly offended over it; there is nothing inherently offensive in my dislike of apple pie, it's not like I'm running around showing pictures of dead babies to people, so I find your offense silly, so indeed I really don't care.

XMAN that bumper sticker you made is FTW

I couldn't quite read it...

 

[xman]

Ah I see, he's from the "I have a right to be offended at anything you say" school of thought. I mean, his "you are aware that you're offensive and don't care" is a bit silly, I mean I had someone get really offended at me because I did not like apple pie, and apparently I am a horrible person for not liking apple pie, and I am aware I'm an offensive dick for not liking apple pie but I don't care... I mean, sure, fine, I'm aware you take offense that I don't like apple pie, but I am simply not going to start liking it because you get terribly offended over it; there is nothing inherently offensive in my dislike of apple pie, it's not like I'm running around showing pictures of dead babies to people, so I find your offense silly, so indeed I really don't care.

Exactly. I think in future I will simply say, "get over yourself" and not even enter into such foolishness. I mean it was not that long ago that some xtians were taking offense at the use of the pagan tree for xmas. How things change. 'Silly' is the perfect word for this.

XMAN that bumper sticker you made is FTW

I couldn't quite read it...

Epic FAiL

 

[Squawk]

Perhaps you might like to point out that putting up a tree to celebrate is actually frowned upon in the Bible, and is a stolen tradition from other cultures.

http://etext.virginia.edu/etcbin/toccer-new2?id=KjvJere.sgm&images=images/modeng&data=/texts/english/modeng/parsed&tag=public&part=10&division=div1

2: Thus saith the LORD, Learn not the way of the heathen, and be not dismayed at the signs of heaven; for the heathen are dismayed at them.
3: For the customs of the people are vain: for one cutteth a tree out of the forest, the work of the hands of the workman, with the axe.
4: They deck it with silver and with gold; they fasten it with nails and with hammers, that it move not.
5: They are upright as the palm tree, but speak not: they must needs be borne, because they cannot go. Be not afraid of them; for they cannot do evil, neither also is it in them to do good.
6: Forasmuch as there is none like unto thee, O LORD; thou art great, and thy name is great in might.
7: Who would not fear thee, O King of nations? for to thee doth it appertain: forasmuch as among all the wise men of the nations, and in all their kingdoms, there is none like unto thee.
8: But they are altogether brutish and foolish: the stock is a doctrine of vanities.

It's always fun to throw the Bible back at them.

 

[xman]

Thanks for that Squawk, it's useful.

My agnostic brother weighs in this morning.

CM Wow, What an odd family spat to stumble upon!
My take(s).

It isn't offensive to have a private holiday tree or to declare your tree a holiday tree. I also don't think what X wrote should be seen as offensive at all. It's factually correct. All Christmas trees are holiday trees but not all holiday trees are christmas trees.

The analogies to other religions aren't all that helpful. Christian / post-Christian European societies are having issues as their values start to stretch away from Christian values, and their beliefs stretch away from a belief in Christ. Many post-christians want to find a way to celebrate the cherished holidays of Christianity and the good feelings that come with it, without giving a hat tap to Jesus. This is actually more reasonable than one would expect despite the name because many of our Christmas traditions, particularly Santa Claus and the Christmas Tree, have extended so far from the story of Christ. So pagans and atheists want Holiday Trees. Fine.

X, the reason this is a hot button issue for Christians (even Christmas and Easter Christians) is really an immigration / PC issue regarding the public sphere. The problem isn't you having a holiday tree - its objection to the removal of Christmas wording from the public sphere including changing Christmas Trees to Holiday Trees in the public sphere under the belief that such a public Christian celebration is tasteless in a society now filled with so many non-Christians, while simultaneously per

On that point I sympathise with the feelings of GM/RM. Christmas trees in the European and European North American public sphere should continue to be Christmas trees.

That having been said I don't believe you've been a jackass or remotely offensive and don't think you have anything to apologise for.

Merry Christmas and Happy Holidays to everyone.

 

[IvantheLizard]

Round three. I tactfully retreated from the constitutional question. She's a lawyer after all.

RM I was referring to the Canadian constitution, not the US, in case you are confused, but maybe you don't feel bound by that one either. In any case, both the US and Canadian constitutions were founded on Judeo-Christian doctrine, and both sets of founding fathers were equally clear on that.

Now wait a minute. Now I know little of the Canadian Constitution, but in the case of the US constitution, Treaty of Tripoli, Art. 11. I can see you didn't want to labor the point but still. Our founding fathers were clearly against "that".

 

[Durakken]

You could just mention that the evergreen tree is from Saturnalia if I remember right and is a pagan holiday and in fact having an evergreen tree in your house during this period of time was banned by the church as it was considered a pagan and thus celebrating the devil and thus a very big sin to do... Let's not go into the decorations >.> which if i remember right are even bigger sins

also edit:

"menorahs were simply candle holders.

Ramadan is a ceremony of the Muslim faith. It would be offensive if one were to refer to it as a month long day light weight loss plan."

That's because the Menorah is A Menorah. It is a 8 pronged candle holder and is notably different and is a secular name.
As far as Ramadan... It is a celebration where the people fast which is a secular term. Saying it is a weight loss plan is just flat out wrong, where as saying a holiday tree is not wrong.

holiday tree (general) -> Christmas tree (specific)

Fast and Diet are two different words and interestingly a Diet can include a Fast and a Fast has something to do with diet but is not done for dietary reasoning.


as far as constitutionality...where ever that came from... Any and all references to god in the USA's Constitution that was not specifically removed was in fact left in because the founding fathers were being INCLUSIVE to theists and not exclusive to secularists. In other words, the body of the work is derived from Secularist position and then was modified to include theists who draw what their rights are from a different source. It was a manipulation tactic and an understanding of the populous and I would say is ahead of it and our present time.

it is also well known that the penners of the Constitution was largely influenced and took most of it from John Locke who was in fact a secularist who wrote most of his philosophy on Natural Law. The other large source was the England Constitution thing that i forget the name of that was in place for like a hundred years or so before.

And further because those are the two primary sources it is even more of a joke when you understand at the time Catholicism was tossed out and replaced by the Church of England which was more or less a parody set up by the King removing it even further from being a christian based document.

 

[RestrictedAccess]

"xman Then your holiday tree is a Christmas Tree. Mine's just a Holiday Tree.

GM Are you aware how offensive your remarks are to me? Is it your intent to cause offense?"



This is where the beginning offense lies. It's not you who's being offensive, but you're cousin. You're simply saying that you call your trees by different labels, and the response is one of unjust indignation and personal attack.

If it were me, I'd have clarified the statement and pointed out that the only one's being offensive are the one's who feel the need to attack you for making a distinction between a Christmas Tree and a Holiday tree.

 

[nasher168]

The Amazing Atheist's latest video talks about similar stuff in the last minute or so:

 

[xman]

I think you're right, RA. My normally kind and loving cousin has been co-opted by religious intolerance.

It has been a busy day including a personal friend (JK) whom none of the other participants know.

GM My complaint in not with the way X chooses to celebrate the season. It is with his labeling of my season. And I quote:

"X declares all Christmas Trees are Holiday Trees because they're here for the holidays, but not all Holiday Trees are Christmas Trees because they're not all here for Christmas."

The operative word here, and the one that pissed me off, is the word all. Because that includes my tree. And my tree is not a season tree. It is a Christmas Tree. If is a symbol of, amongst other things, the birth of Christ, which is a religious symbol to me and alot of other people. In no way did I try to name your tree.

Second quote : "Then your holiday tree is a Christmas Tree. Mine's just a Holiday Tree."

No. I have a Christmas tree.

JK I see what X means in his first assertion that not all Holiday Trees are Christmas trees, but all Christmas trees are here for the holidays.

CM Christmas is a holiday ergo Christmas trees are holiday trees. (holiday btw is a corruption of holy day).

RM Hey, CM, welcome to the fray! I was wondering if you would chime in. I knew you could not resist a good debate. And this one seemed to be right up your alley! So do you prefer to be wished a Merry Christmas, or Happy Holidays?

And X, I am curious, exactly what holiday does your holiday tree celebrate?

CMI prefer a Merry Christmas, please.

RM Me too. So a very Merry Christmas to you and yours!

xman Glad to see you have all been having fun in my absence. Thank-you everyone for your participation in this discussion. It has been enlightening.

CM, yes I understand. Our governments, as proper secular (separation church/state) institutions should provide generic holiday festivities and symbols or none at all IMO, but here's the good news, no Christian or anyone else is oppressed or denigrated because they are still allowed to celebrate and name their celebration and symbols as they like. No bullying intolerance is necessary.

RM, as is obvious to everyone in western society the corporate nature and omnipresent insistence of Christmas can hardly be ignored and as cultural Christians my extended family gather to feast, give and enjoy each others' company at that time even though we are all secular people. Since Christ never figures in the observance it would be most correct to say we celebrate http://krismas.org/. Maybe ours should be a Krismas Tree. It would still be a Holiday Tree too....

We also celebrate the winter solstice with stories and song around a fire whether it be a burning man or the Yule log. As a natural event to an astronomy lover this day is the most festive for me. We couldn't celebrate last year because Marlow was too young to stay up that late, but this year will be his first solstice celebration. Parade of lights, light maze ... It's all about light. May the light shine on you all this season however you choose to observe.

I think we're done.

 

[Aught3]

GM My complaint in not with the way X chooses to celebrate the season. It is with his labeling of my season. And I quote:

"X declares all Christmas Trees are Holiday Trees because they're here for the holidays, but not all Holiday Trees are Christmas Trees because they're not all here for Christmas."

The operative word here, and the one that pissed me off, is the word all. Because that includes my tree. And my tree is not a season tree. It is a Christmas Tree. If is a symbol of, amongst other things, the birth of Christ, which is a religious symbol to me and alot of other people. In no way did I try to name your tree.

Second quote : "Then your holiday tree is a Christmas Tree. Mine's just a Holiday Tree."

Well at least this shows that he's not a jerk. It was nice of him to actually stick around and explain his thinking.

 

[borrofburi]

GM My complaint in not with the way X chooses to celebrate the season. It is with his labeling of my season. And I quote:

"X declares all Christmas Trees are Holiday Trees because they're here for the holidays, but not all Holiday Trees are Christmas Trees because they're not all here for Christmas."

The operative word here, and the one that pissed me off, is the word all. Because that includes my tree. And my tree is not a season tree. It is a Christmas Tree. If is a symbol of, amongst other things, the birth of Christ, which is a religious symbol to me and alot of other people. In no way did I try to name your tree.

Methinks GM does not understand set theory and that is the real problem here. All menorahs *are* candle holders, that's what they do, hold candles; certainly they're a special type of candle holder, and not all candle holders are menorahs, but it'd be ridiculous to be offended by the fact that a menorah holds candles. GM here objects to the *fact* that his candle holder holds candles; or non-metaphorically, GM here objects to the fact that his christmas tree is a tree that marks and celebrates the holidays. He simply doesn't comprehend that he *can't* have a menorah that is not also a candle holder, in his mind his menorah is NOT a candle holder, it's just a menorah, they are, somehow, exclusive non-intersecting sets, in his mind.