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Christianity Misunderstood

M

MRaverz

New Member
arg-fallbackName="MRaverz"/>
Run with me here.

In the Bible, it talks about people being saved by faith and the 'word of God/Jesus' and it has come to my attention that this makes some sense. Yet we need to remove all the spiritual baggage and address the issue at the core.

Imagine religion as a placebo. If you truly believe that it is helping you come out of depression etc, you will be 'saved'. Therefore, the Bible is correct in saying that 'faith saved you' and that 'you just need to believe'.

On the issue of God/Jesus' word - replace 'word' with 'advice' and imagine Jesus not as the son of god, but as a psychotherapist. Place him in the position where he understands that if someone believes they will get better, then they will get better and you have a successful system of mental and emotional healthcare.

Naturally this is shattered with scepticism because it stops you from truly believing something.

Therefore, maybe Christianity has been misunderstood over the years. Could Jesus have been an ordinary, perceptive human being who noticed that believing you will get better - will improve your health? Could he have known about Biblical prophecies and made up stories of his birth so that people would believe he was the character from these old books? Could he also have made up stories about miracles with the aid of twelve trusted friends, one who would later betray him for personal gain? (or maybe Jesus had got out of hand? or maybe it was a plot to make the story even more believable?)

Just throwing out ideas here, what do you guys think? Could Christianity be a system of healthcare which relies on it's 'patients' believing things which are not true to 'save/cure' them?
 
arg-fallbackName="Ornlu Wolfjarl"/>
there's a movie called Man From Earth that makes your point.

in my oppinion, jesus was just a schizofrenic who got tired of being poor.
 
arg-fallbackName="monitoradiation"/>
MRaverz said:
Therefore, maybe Christianity has been misunderstood over the years. Could Jesus have been an ordinary, perceptive human being who noticed that believing you will get better - will improve your health? Could he have known about Biblical prophecies and made up stories of his birth so that people would believe he was the character from these old books? Could he also have made up stories about miracles with the aid of twelve trusted friends, one who would later betray him for personal gain? (or maybe Jesus had got out of hand? or maybe it was a plot to make the story even more believable?)

Just throwing out ideas here, what do you guys think? Could Christianity be a system of healthcare which relies on it's 'patients' believing things which are not true to 'save/cure' them?
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I think its far more likely that Jesus was a conglomerate of several historical figures during similar time periods. The miracles are probably made up, the prophecies falsely attributed to make the stories more believable.

In fact, I think the chances of separate figures being claimed to have been responsible for fulfilling separate prophecies and performing miracles, and then combined into one person, is quite large; at least larger than if you were to claim that one person was said to have fulfilled all the prophecies and performed all the miracles.

Whether or not the figures themselves claimed to fulfill these prophecies, or that these were further embellishments by society/writers is another issue, but I don't think that's required for the jesus person, as we know of today, to come about.
 
arg-fallbackName="barondavid"/>
Could Christianity be a system of healthcare which relies on it's 'patients' believing things which are not true to 'save/cure' them?
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No, the modern Psychiatrists and Psychologists can take care of the psychological needs. And Physicians and other specialists can take care of the other needs. If we encourage and support their belief in things which are not true such as the bible, then more tragic incidents will happen such us 11 year old Madeline Neumann dieing after being prayed over.
 
arg-fallbackName="Anachronous Rex"/>
I suppose, "take no thought for the morrow," would remove a lot of anxiety in the short term; but the long term effects on one's health would be devastating.

So even if we are to grant you that Jesus' words were intended as a health regimen, it's still bad advice.
 
arg-fallbackName="Steve5513"/>
Does placebo always work? I don't think so, but if someone could clarify that would be great.

Anyway, I personally prefer to know the truth. A placebo doesn't do it for me, not a reason for me to believe. I'm also not sure how Jesus would have known of the placebo effect.

This isn't something that would be rational to believe (Though you didn't present it as such, it seems)
 
arg-fallbackName="MRaverz"/>
Steve5513 said:
Does placebo always work? I don't think so, but if someone could clarify that would be great.

Anyway, I personally prefer to know the truth. A placebo doesn't do it for me, not a reason for me to believe. I'm also not sure how Jesus would have known of the placebo effect.

This isn't something that would be rational to believe (Though you didn't present it as such, it seems)
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The placebo effect generally works only if the patient is fooled into believing they are taking medicine, if they know it's a placebo - it won't work. That said it's not only an effect which occurs with an actual placebo, medicine will also have a degree of placebo effect as does massage etc.

This is the reason that alternative medicine will occasionally have some medicinal benefit, yet it is no comparison to working medicine and a hell of a lot more expensive.
 
arg-fallbackName="Unwardil"/>
Well the body does heal it's self wether you're taking drugs or not. That's really what the placebo effect is.
 
arg-fallbackName="MRaverz"/>
Unwardil said:
Well the body does heal it's self wether you're taking drugs or not. That's really what the placebo effect is.
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Well not exactly, because you also have the nocebo effect. Whereby a substance will cause harm if you believe it is a harmful substance, as well as producing the usual side effects of a drug if you believe it is that drug (and know the side effects).

There are also occasions where people have had withdrawal effects due to stopping treatment of a placebo.
 
arg-fallbackName="Unwardil"/>
True enough, though I would imagine that's far less prevalent than the bodies natural repair systems increasing the placebo effect.
 
arg-fallbackName="MRaverz"/>
Unwardil said:
True enough, though I would imagine that's far less prevalent than the bodies natural repair systems increasing the placebo effect.
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The placebo effect has been studied more as people are more interested in the use of a substance to do good, than to do harm.
 
arg-fallbackName="Unwardil"/>
Well, but what I mean is, what is the difference between patients experiencing the placebo effect and simply not taking anything at all?
 
arg-fallbackName="MRaverz"/>
Unwardil said:
Well, but what I mean is, what is the difference between patients experiencing the placebo effect and simply not taking anything at all?
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It depends on the patient, according to what I've seen from studies - only about 35% of people are effected, ranging from minor improvements to drastic recoveries.
 
arg-fallbackName="Case"/>
Well,... if you replace every sentence in the bible with a sentence that makes sense, the new "bible" will make sense. :facepalm:
 
arg-fallbackName="MRaverz"/>
Case said:
There's an edit button, you know? It looks like this:
icon_post_edit.gif
.
Use it.

And yea, if you replace every sentence in the bible with a sentence that makes sense, the new "bible" will make sense. :facepalm:
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Directed at me?
 
arg-fallbackName="Baranduin"/>
I haven't read the article Andiferous has linked yet (it's long and I've just arrived home), but:
Steven Novella said:
In order to demystify the placebo effect, I will try to first describe exactly what it is. The operational definition of a placebo effect is any health effect measured after an intervention that is something other than a physiological response to a biologically active treatment. In clinical trials the placebo effect is any measured response in the group of study subjects that received an inert treatment, such as a sugar pill. However, "the placebo effect" is a misnomer and contributes to confusion, because it is not a single effect but the net result of many possible factors.
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More here.

And as for whether Christ was a therapist (unethically) using placebos,
1) That doesn't explain all the other stuff, the one unrelated to believing. Like "pay your taxes".
2) The effect of Christ teachings - meaning that particular branch, and not other variations - as a placebo is to be demonstrated.

So I concede to the whole idea the same probability than Jesus being a CheGuevara-like revolutionary.
 
arg-fallbackName="Anachronous Rex"/>
Perhaps I am mistaken on this point, but is not the punishment of the dead in hell usually attributed to the new testament?

If Jesus was trying to reduce peoples anxiety this seems a very inappropriate way to proceed.
 
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