Child abuse and selfishness.

[LillSnopp]

Hi!

I just registered to this forum and hope I wont get bored by it (I hope/presume there will be many able bodies to share and debate with to expand ones mind and knowledge) as I normally do, I guess I am not one of these Forum guys in general, lets hope, or is that pray?


I thought my initial post would take a stab at one of the things I truly despie, Childabuse.

Similar to Mr Dawkins, I consider a parent indoctrinating/"educating" their child into a religion, to be actively engaging in child abuse, an innocent child is force feed his or her parents ignorance because of their own sick and twisted consideration of what is 'right'. I can not relate to this at all and only see these people as vile disgusting human beings.

If I have a daughter I would not only educate her about the worlds religions, telling her why (psychologically) they believe what they do, how religion evolved during human evolution and so on, I would also make it clear that my opinions is just that, mine, and I may think and consider what is good or bad for her, I may express it and I may give a good reason for it (you always need to explain the reasons for your belief) but I can also be wrong, something many parents seem to forget to educate their children, and in this sense, are responsible for their future childrens failure to 'get it' later on it life.


That innocent children are indoctrinated by their parents is, according to me, the worst case of child abuse there is, What do you think?

 

[ImprobableJoe]

That innocent children are indoctrinated by their parents is, according to me, the worst case of child abuse there is, What do you think?

Sorry... punching or raping children is much worse.

 

[suzybrown]

That innocent children are indoctrinated by their parents is, according to me, the worst case of child abuse there is, What do you think?

Sorry... punching or raping children is much worse.

x2.

I get where Lill is going, but its not nearly "the worst case... there is."

 

[ImprobableJoe]

x2.

I get where Lill is going, but its not nearly "the worst case... there is."

Yeah. I mean, it isn't a great thing that parents are teaching their kids to be superstitious, but it is pretty hyperbolic to call it "child abuse."

 

[LillSnopp]

That innocent children are indoctrinated by their parents is, according to me, the worst case of child abuse there is, What do you think?

Sorry... punching or raping children is much worse.

Ah, but Mr Joe, what is more longterm damanging? Beating your child or make it believe in something that does not exist and they or their friends, will burn in Hellfire forever if they dont believe it? I think Dawkins made this case in the God Delusion, correct me if I am wrong.

Yeah. I mean, it isn't a great thing that parents are teaching their kids to be superstitious, but it is pretty hyperbolic to call it "child abuse."

I think you do not seem to realize the damaging effect alot of these religious upbringings do. Catholics come to mind specifically, Hellfire, sulfur and brimstone, that is indeed, and any physician would agree to the long term damaging effect.

How do you mean if you do not agree with this Joe? Would love to get a more indept explanation of your thoughts on this, I can only imagine that you simple do not realize the effects this have, but cant fathom how you could not understand it, therefore I am asking.

 

[suzybrown]

Most children, at some point, come to realize that their parents are not without fault. Its not so hard to forgive a parent for being misled themselves. I think its part of growing up -- to come to the personal realization that not everything you've been told in life is true or accurate.

 

[DrunkCat]

Yeah but considering the more religious you are the less moral you are I'd say that the long-term affect is a valid point. You can say for every one child that gets 'physically' abused, three will grow up due to religious influence and abuse their own offspring.

 

[ImprobableJoe]

How do you mean if you do not agree with this Joe? Would love to get a more indept explanation of your thoughts on this, I can only imagine that you simple do not realize the effects this have, but cant fathom how you could not understand it, therefore I am asking.

Let's take two instances, shall we?

In the first instance, Daddy tells his daughter Julie that there's a magic man in the sky who loves her and wants her to love him, and if she doesn't she'll be punished... but it is mostly cute animals on the ark and "Jesus Loves Me" and other falsehoods that make her a little gullible but still capable of dealing with the real world in most instances. That's what most religious indoctrination is, for most people: silly stories that aren't true, but don't do irreversible damage.

In the second instance, Daddy tells his daughter Julie that he needs to put his peepee in her peepee hole on a weekly basis from the time she is 6 until she's 16, and if she tells anyone Daddy will kill her, her brother, her mom, and then himself. Sometimes he gets drunk and beats Julie's little brother so badly that he can't go to school for a few days, and tells the brother that if he tells then Daddy will kill the whole family and himself.

Somehow, as much as I hate religion,I just can't bring myself to put it in the same category as child abuse.

 

[borrofburi]

...but it is mostly cute animals on the ark and "Jesus Loves Me" and other falsehoods that make her a little gullible but still capable of dealing with the real world in most instances. That's what most religious indoctrination is, for most people: silly stories that aren't true, but don't do irreversible damage.

Ah, if you think that's what all religious people believe, no wonder you are so contemptuous of it. It's not all unicorns and bunnies, I have met people who are psychologically traumatized because they really do believe in the existence of hell and that billions of people will be tortured for all eternity, and on top of that they have a lot of empathy for people; the combination of the two leads to them being truly horrified. While obviously that level of psychological trauma is rare, I think it's present in all christians to a greater or lesser extent. I would hope that if you truly understood that you wouldn't mock them, but pity them.

Anyway, I must, sadly, agree with iJoe: religious indoctrination, in the majority of cases, isn't child abuse. Only in extreme situations can it possibly be compared to rape. Horrible? Yes, and in some cases I would indeed go so far as to call it child abuse, but to compare it to rape is incorrect.

 

[LillSnopp]

How do you mean if you do not agree with this Joe? Would love to get a more indept explanation of your thoughts on this, I can only imagine that you simple do not realize the effects this have, but cant fathom how you could not understand it, therefore I am asking.

Let's take two instances, shall we?

In the first instance, Daddy tells his daughter Julie that there's a magic man in the sky who loves her and wants her to love him, and if she doesn't she'll be punished... but it is mostly cute animals on the ark and "Jesus Loves Me" and other falsehoods that make her a little gullible but still capable of dealing with the real world in most instances. That's what most religious indoctrination is, for most people: silly stories that aren't true, but don't do irreversible damage.

In the second instance, Daddy tells his daughter Julie that he needs to put his peepee in her peepee hole on a weekly basis from the time she is 6 until she's 16, and if she tells anyone Daddy will kill her, her brother, her mom, and then himself. Sometimes he gets drunk and beats Julie's little brother so badly that he can't go to school for a few days, and tells the brother that if he tells then Daddy will kill the whole family and himself.

Somehow, as much as I hate religion,I just can't bring myself to put it in the same category as child abuse.

Well, the physical abuse is temporary and physical, the mental abuse makes her believe that she or her friends will burn in hell forever, makes her wake up every night in coldsweat as her friend of 20 years died in a car accident and now is burning in hell...

You tell me.

 

[DrunkCat]

It basically boils down whether you carry more empathy for the individual and short term versus more empathy for society as a whole and the long term.

 

[ImprobableJoe]

Well, the physical abuse is temporary and physical, the mental abuse makes her believe that she or her friends will burn in hell forever, makes her wake up every night in coldsweat as her friend of 20 years died in a car accident and now is burning in hell...

You tell me.

No, the physical abuse is ALSO emotional abuse, worse than 99% of the bullshit most religious people tell their kids. Remember, all religious people are not extremists, and don't raise their kids as ridiculous fundamentalists. Most religious teaching is of the "weak" variety, and that stuff in no way compares to rape, beatings, and threats of death. "God" is a hypothetical magic man that might do something bad maybe, but if Daddy is an abusive child molester he's doing something demonstrably bad. The two cannot logically be compared.

 

[DrunkCat]

The two cannot logically be compared.

Not at their polarizing extremes, no.

 

[derkvanl]

That innocent children are indoctrinated by their parents is, according to me, the worst case of child abuse there is, What do you think?

Sorry... punching or raping children is much worse.

I would class that as physical abuse, not denying that the emotional consequences can be devastating, it's a physical abuse. Most of the time doesn't have to do with any religion or class the people are in. Every layer of society, every age, no exception.

When it comes to education however, it's called brainwashing.

x2.

I get where Lill is going, but its not nearly "the worst case... there is."

Yeah. I mean, it isn't a great thing that parents are teaching their kids to be superstitious, but it is pretty hyperbolic to call it "child abuse."

Teaching your kids to be superstitious is one thing. How is your opinion when it comes to things like Jesus Camp (2006 documentary). Or when it comes to human or kids rights when it comes to education.

Article 26.
"¢(1) Everyone has the right to education. Education shall be free, at least in the elementary and fundamental stages. Elementary education shall be compulsory. Technical and professional education shall be made generally available and higher education shall be equally accessible to all on the basis of merit.
"¢(2) Education shall be directed to the full development of the human personality and to the strengthening of respect for human rights and fundamental freedoms. It shall promote understanding, tolerance and friendship among all nations, racial or religious groups, and shall further the activities of the United Nations for the maintenance of peace.
"¢(3) Parents have a prior right to choose the kind of education that shall be given to their children.

Kids get denied the "technical and professional" knowledge, based upon religion. Religion teaches the opposite of (2). Point (3) is actually a problem when you read it. It gives parents a blank ticket for any education, so I hope it means education, according to (1) and (2).

Most children, at some point, come to realize that their parents are not without fault. Its not so hard to forgive a parent for being misled themselves. I think its part of growing up -- to come to the personal realization that not everything you've been told in life is true or accurate.

If you look around there's a lot of extremity, I allways wonder what they where taught when they were a kid, and more important what they teach their kids now.

 

[Aught3]

I have some sympathy for Richard Dawkins' view on this matter. In their milder forms, religious indoctrination does far less harm than mild physical or sexual abuse. However, in it's extreme form, 'fire and brimstone' religion does do lasting mental harm to people and so does extreme sexual or physical abuse. I think the comparison is a far* one.

*fair (typo)

 

[suzybrown]

I think the comparison is a far one.

FAR or FAIR?

 

[Aught3]

FAR or FAIR?

Damn, I meant fair - that's what I get for not proof-reading :lol:

 

[LillSnopp]

Okay, ignoring the extreme examples added (irrelevant), I wish to speak plainly here.

When a young child is told/indoctrinate by their parents to believe in things that do not exist such as Gods, Elfs and so on, it does some serious harm to them. They, in regards to say Christianity and Islam, prevents them from accepting reality, and if they still do, they are juggling with complete poolar positions which may, finally, force them to ignore the facts.

Our Evolution shows us that there is no gods, for example. It shows how we evolved and even provides an explanation of where the god belief comes from, I have never believed in gods, I guess I am naturally intelligent or acceptant of reality, but I understood that most people need a father figure or invisible buddy, if you may, and the god concept gives them this in adult age, we have physical explanations for the believes, nothing strange here.

But if you want to believe in a fairy or gods, fine, the problem is that when you get a child you will, almost universally, indoctrinate it to believe the same as you, that is the problem, that is 'light' indoctrination or 'not to harmful' is a rather weird stance to take, it is lying, but more importantly, you want others, ie. your child, to believe what you believe even when it goes against Reality, such as our Evolution, this is not okay.

To debate the details about what is abuse or not, Religion, in its shape or form as indoctrinated (ignoring 'self discovered people') is child abuse as it makes the Child, during its most important years of learning, to put up a FENCE against Reality and believe in things that do not exist contrary to reality, This is abuse, it is abuse that goes far and wide and even the best and most educated will still face problems, the best scenario is still when they accept facts like Gravity andf Evolution and YET believe in gods, which shows an amazing ability in juggling two different contradictory concept, they should not have to do this.

Any parent loving their child would not indoctrinate them into religion, and doing is, by my logic here, child abuse, the abuse of a innocent human life for their own benefit (feeling better about themselves? who knows).

 

[suzybrown]

, that is the problem, that is 'light' indoctrination or 'not to harmful' is a rather weird stance to take, it is lying, but more importantly, you want others, ie. your child, to believe what you believe even when it goes against Reality, such as our Evolution, this is not okay.

Is it a lie if the parent honestly believes it to be true?

For example -- If I think light from a bulb is drastically different than light from the sun, and I tell my child that, and later find out the wavelengths are actually very similar... is that a lie?


Also many faiths believe in evolution -- the Catholic Church for example. Faith & science do co-exist..


I'm curious as to how many children you have, Lill.

 

[LillSnopp]

, that is the problem, that is 'light' indoctrination or 'not to harmful' is a rather weird stance to take, it is lying, but more importantly, you want others, ie. your child, to believe what you believe even when it goes against Reality, such as our Evolution, this is not okay.

Is it a lie if the parent honestly believes it to be true?

For example -- If I think light from a bulb is drastically different than light from the sun, and I tell my child that, and later find out the wavelengths are actually very similar... is that a lie?


Also many faiths believe in evolution -- the Catholic Church for example. Faith & science do co-exist..


I'm curious as to how many children you have, Lill.

Yes, I am sorry Suzy, I know, It is not a lie if they really believe it, but what they believe should not be relevant to what they teach their kids, right? Shouldn't facts be of relevance here, and if you are a Christian and deny the facts of our Evolution, you are either Stupid or Lying, should a stupid person be allowed to 'educate' their child into stupidity?

No, Faith survives with Science because they have to, medicines and so on would disapear without it, they live in a dreamworld, they live in a deluded world, they believe in a God that is completely in contrast to Reality (Evolution), That means, once again, we are back to lies, they are lying to themselves to manage it, excluding the few that are mentally handicaped.

Do you agree?