Chemtrails

[ImprobableJoe]

I must have misconceived the purpose of this board. I was under the impression that it exists to address the contingency of conspiracy theories and present all supporting evidence so we can discuss whether it is completely absurd and why, or argue for its possible validity. Simply because I am the OP doesn't mean I actually believe that the government is spraying us with chemicals, and I shouldn't be accused of craziness because I proposed the possibility. It seems that if the theory is to scary or insane, people automatticaly dismiss it as unequivocally false.

You got the purpose right... I guess you were hoping we would discuss a stupid idea as though it was actually a smart idea? We dismiss false ideas and dumb ideas. We weren't "scared" except by the level of sheer crazy and the possibility of the sort people who created that one website living in our neighborhoods.

The fact that you're throwing a temper tantrum now? That just shows that you were and are dishonest about your claim that you wanted to know our thoughts, or that you want to "discuss" anything. You just want to spread dumb, discredited ideas... and possibly infect other people with the crackpottery you favor.

 

[lightbulbsun88]

Honestly this is a little harsh. He also tried to provide a couple links to other sources and a u.s. senate bill. I admit it's not at all compelling, but to call him an idiot is not very fair. In your quoted bit he admitted he was unconvinced by the evidence as well, but just wanted to discuss it and hear any other bits of evidence.

Don't be a jerk.

I probably was a bit harsh. I'll try to tone it down.

 

[Anonymous]

There's ZERO context for those pictures, so they are 100% meaningless. I don't have to explain them... you do. How do I know that nozzle isn't attached to a crop-dusting plane? You've provided zero context for me to make a judgment.

Here's the point that you need to get through your head up front, before this goes any further: the burden of proof is on you. You have to convince me. It is not my job to talk you out of a ridiculous paranoid delusion, based on the links of what appear to be madmen. You have to show that your claims are credible. You have to provide evidence.

What you seem to want to do is post a bunch of stuff, and if we can't 100% disprove it to your satisfaction you're going to claim that it is legitimate. That's not only dishonest, but it also runs contrary to all the rules of logic and rational discussion. We don't have to disprove it, you have to prove it. Your answers don't become right when you dismiss my answers, because we could BOTH be wrong. You have to prove yourself to be right, not just claim that everyone else is wrong.

The photos are simply evidence that supports the proposition that chemtrails exist. Suppose I took them myself, the burden of proof would be on you to disregard them as fallacious or invalid, not me. So does the origin of the evidence alter the residence of the burden of proof? The burden of proof would be on me if I simply declared- "The government is spraying us with chemicals from aircrafts" but if I were to present a valid argument it would be up to you to debunk my argument, not up to me to argue for my arguments validity without even being countered by an opposing argument.

"The photos are simply evidence that supports the proposition that chemtrails exist."

No, they are not.

The first one looks like some kind of experimental spray device for in-flight testing - you know - the same sort of stuff as this: http://pdf.aiaa.org/preview/1991/PV1991_445.pdf

The second one - are you seriously trying to suggest that toxic chemicals would be stored inside a jet airliner type aircraft in the sort of equipment shown in that photo? Get real. Note the electronics cabinets close by and the seats for personnel.

The third one looks like a pitot tube or an inlet for a gas composition analyser of some sort; also note the smaller tube that points in the same direction. That is definately a pitot tube - you know, the sort of thing used to measure airspeed.

I must have misconceived the purpose of this board. I was under the impression that it exists to address the contingency of conspiracy theories and present all supporting evidence so we can discuss whether it is completely absurd and why, or argue for its possible validity. Simply because I am the OP doesn't mean I actually believe that the government is spraying us with chemicals, and I shouldn't be accused of craziness because I proposed the possibility. It seems that if the theory is to scary or insane, people automatticaly dismiss it as unequivocally false.

You embedded several images, calling them

Pretty compelling photographs

now, that seems to me to be a pretty clear statement of your own opnion as to the validity of the "chemtrail" claim. I think it pretty likely that you do in fact believe that the "gubmint" is spraying all sorts of fantastic nanobots or whatever all over the skies.

Fun being held to account for what you say, isn't it.

 

[Zeronix]

now, that seems to me to be a pretty clear statement of your own opnion as to the validity of the "chemtrail" claim. I think it pretty likely that you do in fact believe that the "gubmint" is spraying all sorts of fantastic nanobots or whatever all over the skies.

Fun being held to account for what you say, isn't it.

I'm disappointed, this board is full of quote miners.

 

[ImprobableJoe]

I'm disappointed, this board is full of quote miners.

Why do you come here with your unfounded assertions, lie about your intent, and then attack us when we see you clearly for what you are?

Do you think that your feigned "disappointment" and accusations cover up the weakness of your position? Come back when you have evidence and a rational idea to share with us.

 

[ebbixx]

Why would anyone find those pictures "compelling"? I'm not in the tiniest bit impressed. I'm also not even the least bit swayed by the idea of a contrail with a relatively sharp "cut-off" feature.

Do you actually care what we think, or are you convinced of some idiot conspiracy theory?

I can't say this is definitely what is shown in those stills, but cloud seeding experiments have been public knowledge since I was a child in the 1960s. What these pictures would compellingly represent escapes me, apparently. I would like to see photos and confirmed testimony, though, about any "checkerboard" patterns... especially dates and locations, since I expect one could find a credible public explanation within a matter of minutes, given documentation and specific details. Next time it happens take some pictures, preferably some video too and call the local news media. Also check in with any local universities, especially those with an Ag. department.

If you hope to substantiate an extreme claim, your first necessary task is to eliminate all the likely explanations that could be offered as more reasonable, simpler explanations. Do some reading and get a grasp on Occam's razor and you may be able to at least seed some basis for reasonable doubt. So far though, you (Zeronix) have failed even to present the basic facts meant to support your case in a credible and documented manner. You are welcome to come back with more evidence (or documentation and details about the stuff presented so far that you claim to be evidence, for that matter) but it will only have credibility to whatever degree it can be tested, verified and challenged against what other witnesses and sources have to say. Pictures whose sources are unknown and offered without citation or source information (or even alleged dates and locations) hardly count as evidence of anything in particular, except perhaps another failure of an education system.

My mind is open to all sorts of extreme possibilities, but they need to be what's left over and credible once all the more likely causes have been eliminated. It's not an easy or even necessarily a very fun task, unless you just happen to be built that way.

 

[Anonymous]

I'm disappointed, this board is full of quote miners.

Fail.

I didn't quote mine, your meaning was absolutely clear. In any event, you quote mine yourself, I suggest you desist or go elsewhere.

 

[ImprobableJoe]

If you hope to substantiate an extreme claim, your first necessary task is to eliminate all the likely explanations that could be offered as more reasonable, simpler explanations. Do some reading and get a grasp on Occam's razor and you may be able to at least seed some basis for reasonable doubt. So far though, you (Zeronix) have failed even to present the basic facts meant to support your case in a credible and documented manner. You are welcome to come back with more evidence (or documentation and details about the stuff presented so far that you claim to be evidence, for that matter) but it will only have credibility to whatever degree it can be tested, verified and challenged against what other witnesses and sources have to say. Pictures whose sources are unknown and offered without citation or source information (or even alleged dates and locations) hardly count as evidence of anything in particular, except perhaps another failure of an education system.

My mind is open to all sorts of extreme possibilities, but they need to be what's left over and credible once all the more likely causes have been eliminated. It's not an easy or even necessarily a very fun task, unless you just happen to be built that way.

That's the place where most conspiracy theories fail, before you even get into the specific claims: there's no coherent explanation that covers the facts in a more compelling way than the accepted mainstream non-conspiracy explanation. There's no evidence for any reason to doubt the "official" story, beyond unfounded supposition and a need to ascribe an evil motive to everything that the CT nutter doesn't completely understand.

 

[Mapp]

Look, proving this chem-trail conspiracy would be maddeningly simple. You would have to (drumroll please) simply present proof. Here's a start, how about a series of atmospheric tests for a duration of weeks after a plane has passed over a given area. Test for isolated, increasing levels of chemicals over-time. There is simply no such thing as an untraceable chemical. Do this over a series of years to develop a workable model. If you find anything that could not be explained by normal atmospheric conditions, local pollution, or jet plane exhaust, send it to a lab and test it to see if the chemicals detected have any effect on the human anatomy. Then, publish your findings in a peer reviewed journal, offering irrefutable and falsifiable evidence of the effects of plane chemicals. That's way better than, "uh have you ever noticed that sometimes plane exhaust trails stay in the sky a long time?"

Or, here's a crazy one, find some items from what must be mountains of documents describing the process. After all, if you have government agencies modifying planes to spray chemicals, think of all the steps involved. There would be have to be modified specs on the plane design, from Airbus or Boeing, there would be documents on the construction and installation of the tanks, there would be orders from the steel companies who smelted the tanks, and the rubber companies who made the seals, there would be documents of orders, manifests and shipping logs from whatever chemical company they are buying their supplies from. There would be reports from ground crews who installed, serviced and repaired them. Weight-ratio reports on the planes that showed unexplainable weight in the aircraft. There would be logs from the on-board computer of the plane. There would be documents, presumably from the defense department, or whomever you think is responsible, authorizing the installation, usage and cover-up of said items. Any researcher worth his or her salt, and who has enough time on his or her hands should be able to find a lot more than just some out of context pictures.

Remember, this is presumably happening in the United States. We're talking about the same government that couldn't cover up a hotel burglary. The same government, which wrote down assassination lists for the CIA intervention in El Salvador, and didn't bother destroying them after the fact, and left them where researchers could find them (I know, because I've seen them.) The same government that, through the simple application of a Freedom of Information Act demand, allows you to read FBI files documenting their spying activities on American citizens (I have personally read the complete FBI file on the House Un-American Activities Committee, and the NAACP, which you can get at most decent research libraries). In a bureaucracy, there is simply no such thing as a black-op. Someone, somewhere would have a chain of evidence. In a bureaucracy, there are no secrets that stay secret for long, due to the sheer number of people involved in routing or handling information. Anyone of those people, from a mid-level paper pusher, to a bored IRS auditor, to a blue collar worker on the ground, to a student doing a dissertation, is capable of blowing the lid off the thing at any given time, as our leaders have learned to their chagrin, again and again and again. And given the number of people out there who believe in this nonsense, it is absolutely ridiculous to think that there wouldn't be someone invovled who found their websites, and either had an attack of conscience and decided to leak the critical information, or who, sensing fame and fortune, wouldn't immediately leak them to the New York Times.

The fact that these chemtrail stories have been out for years, and there has never been one shred of documentation or research to back up the claims, should give any rational individual ample evidence to conclude that there is simply not enough reason to contend their existence. Then again, if you're an irrational individual who is willing to accept any story as long as it places you antagonistically against "the man" then no amount of evidence is going to convince you of the contrary anyway.

And don't make the tired old canard that the government would kill anyone who tried. This isn't an Oliver Stone movie. To suggest that any agency in the world is so omnipotent as to control all of its information all of the time, would be to suggest an organization with a budget more than the global GDP. And seeing how many times the Federal Government, and its various states have lost everything from cruise missile data to the social security numbers of workers on their insurance plan just because someone left a hard drive laying around, even if such an agency did exist, it's doing a crappy job.

 

[Shapeshifter]

Ahh hilarious! Didn't notice this thread existed. Chemtrails.... LOL it's like the lamest conspiracy theory ever. Sure... And those pictures, brilliant I really laughed out loud... And fluoride makes you traceable from space, right? What's next? The bubbles in sparkling water contain brain control gas or what?? Got compelling evidence: If you shake a soda bottle real hard, open it up, and sniff the gas that comes out, it really tickles your nose! That can't be right!!

Here's some more evidence:

 

[ExeFBM]

There may be simple way of checking the plausability of this. If chemtrails are part of a plot by the US government to do x, y, and z, and not the result of varying atmospheric conditions, then the longer lasting contrails should only appear above US airspace, right? Check other countries with similar climates, maybe central europe, to see if they have long lasting contrails. If contrails occur across the planet, or simply from planes that aren't exclusively of US origin, then I think they can be attributed to atmospheric conditions.

If you only find them over the US, and only originating from unregistered military aircraft, then that might give the conspiracy something approaching respectability.

 

[ImprobableJoe]

There may be simple way of checking the plausability of this. If chemtrails are part of a plot by the US government to do x, y, and z, and not the result of varying atmospheric conditions, then the longer lasting contrails should only appear above US airspace, right? Check other countries with similar climates, maybe central europe, to see if they have long lasting contrails. If contrails occur across the planet, or simply from planes that aren't exclusively of US origin, then I think they can be attributed to atmospheric conditions.

If you only find them over the US, and only originating from unregistered military aircraft, then that might give the conspiracy something approaching respectability.

Don't make the mistake of thinking that logic or reason plays any part of this. If long-lasting contrails exist everywhere, the nutters will just claim that it is a worldwide conspiracy, and then probably blame the Jews. :roll:

 

[Kennethah81]

I would just like to point out that nobody has confirmed that any of those pictures show a tanker plane.
If you look closer, you can clearly see that the two pictures on Pulsars first post are not of the same aircraft.
Pulsars other post clearly explains the interior shot tough

 

[SpanishInquisition]

Darn, I,´m late to this one... Anyway, hope you don,´t mind if I resurrect it, just in case someone out there reads about those chemtrails, doesn,´t laugh immediately and decides to search a bit before deciding.

I,´m a pilot, and one that pays his bills spraying crops. Not that you have to believe me simply because I say "I am; I know", but I,´m sure you know some cropduster: ask him to confirm.

That pitot tube photo. Using a different caption for it, "nozzle" in this case, doesn,´t mean it ceases to be a pitot tube to become whatever the caption says. I could have named it "My great grandmother, the bionic Martian. See? that,´s her nose". But assuming it were a nozzle, it,´d be the most archaic, useless nozzle known to human; and one doing anything but producing uniform, stable, steady, durable and beautiful toxic clouds.

Lets explain why:

The size of the droplet is controlled by the angle between the nozzle and the current of air. The more perpendicular to the current, the smaller the droplet. Smaller droplets make the clouds that float forever and ever. Bigger droplets just fall off the sky. Just try with a bottle of water and your car (in motion, please): point it straight down (open bottle, please) and see how the water 'breaks' into many small drops. Start angling it backwards, to a position more parallel to the current of air (the ground) and see what happens: the water 'breaks' less and less, till you get a pretty much continuous trickle. Having a nozzle completely parallel to the current of air would produce that, some thick spurt that,´d fall like it was raining, then randomly breaking apart as it hits the fast-as-hell air, in tiny drops or huge thick-as-bricks drops, making for the most uneven, irregular, imprecise, unpredictable, inefficient application ever.

Any family run company today has electronically controlled nozzles, that,´d automatically change their angle according to one million factors in order to get the exact droplet size. The thing in the picture is fixed, so it,´d be producing a wide range of droplets, depending on the varying conditions along the flight, with no way to control it. You can control the flow, but that doesn,´t change how the air is going to affect the product as it leaves the nozzle. And you can add as many electronics as you want, but what gets out of the nozzle will still hit the laws of physics (not to mention that it,´d be laughable spending one megazillion $ in fancy electronics when you can control it by just adjusting the angle of the nozzle, like every cropduster does).

Then, one nozzle? Wow. Even if it were spraying sulfuric acid on a zero-wind morning right over your house, circling it for one hour, you could still stick your d... let,´s rephrase that to a less farm-guy vocabulary... you could still sunbath there and rest assured that it,´d be diluted in the ton of air between your nose and the nozzle. Remember those paranoids thinking that the huge tails of comets, containing their share of poisonous compounds, would kill us all? Well, the same would apply here: such quantities at such altitudes would have 0 effect on the ground.

Why do you think we spray the fields so close to the ground, to look cool? It is because when you,´re spraying, the stuff would otherwise travel miles and miles away from the objective field below; and in fact it does, even when sprayed as low as 5ft above the ground on a calm day. I wish I weren,´t this lazy so I could scan the graphs on how droplet size, wind and altitude influence the product drift (just try googling around). Take a small drop, unnoticeable wind, 50ft height and see how the drop travels to the next continent. Now take an airliner, at airliner altitude, an uncontrollable nozzle, with the wildly varying winds up there and now try to figure out where the drops will land. "Aha! That,´s why they make big droplets! so they fall just where they want!". Aha, no buddy. Big droplets would fall like rain, and that,´s not what is described as chemtrails, that are supposed to be thin regular clouds that slooowly float in the air until they fall. So, how do they do that? attaching a little parachute to every single fat droplet so they fall slowly? Hmmm... Wait, the wind would take those skydiving droplets and their parachutes to Micronesia... Not even applying cartoon imagination does it work.

You see patterns? That,´s probably because planes fly in patterns. One goes from A to B, fixed points, the drift up there is huge, so its contrails are displaced by the time the next airliner is leaving his right on the same A to B fixed line, that will be displaced by the time the third arrives. They,´re flying at the same time, leaving parallel lines in the sky? That,´s probably because it,´s hard for two planes to be in the same spot of air not colliding with each other, or simpler yet, because planes fly in three dimensions, so what you see as horizontally parallel lines are vertically parallel lines. When one is approaching straight to you, you see it as if it was climbing straight away, don,´t you? That,´s an easy way for you to know that your brain is cheating and not wired to understand and easily see things happening miles away from your position. Remember that you kind of 'lose' the depth sensation when looking too far away, at a landscape or something; doesn,´t it look a bit like flat, even when you know it isn,´t? The same applies here.

Some more? OK. Why on earth would a guy working on a secret project be wearing a hi-viz vest? (reference: photo #1)

Cheers!

 

[TheFearmonger]

Ok, my turn.

i read your gov't bill, zeronix. It says in it they are forming a board for artificial creation of clouds. First off, hitler formed a board to assess whether ghosts were real. Second, clouds are formed from that highly sinister substance...water.
This effectively means that anything they used would be water, or water vapor. So,... what's the problem? Just read a little.

ps good job with the second photo. If you look carefully, you can tell it has been photoshopped. The angle of the sprayer and the plane don't exactly match. Also, if I'm not mistaken, the third isn't even necessarily a plane at all! It could be the muppet's limo, for all I know, or Optimus Prime.
pps Zeronix, they are derisive because you have really failed to present a case. You have given some highly ambiguous evidence, and some occasional nebulous fears and concerns. Look at it impersonally. Can't you see why they laugh? If you would present some form of a case? They laugh because this is laughable. Try again, if you are seriously concerned. But provide some good, scientific evidence, plz, ok?
ppps I love belgium chocolate. :mrgreen:
pppps ... um... 'sup. :|

 

[Caustic]

Pretty compelling photographs:

Engineers simulate different passenger loads in a plane by these tanks of water. It's a fast way to shift weight around and see the resulting performance of an aircraft.

Moreover, if you had a tank of chemicals you wanted to disperse, then why have these multiple small tanks? It obviously appears 99% of the cabin space is wasted.

I honestly don't know what the hell this thing is, but I bet most of the idiots spreading it around as proof of their wibble don't either.

Oh look! A Pitot tube! A device used for measuring flow speed!

I also witnessed a defined trail that distinctly stops at one point, as if the nozzles had been turned off.

Contrails can appear/disappear depending on ambient air conditions. Your 'stopping trail' is about as convincing as your silly photographs

Please stop spreading dishonest crap to perpetuate inane bullshit.

 

[Lallapalalable]

Oh good lord :roll:.

I considered making a debunk of this on youtube a while back.

I have only one question concerning this, for those who believe in the CT: What would be the purpose of dispersing such chemicals at such high altitudes? They would either dissapate, stay up there, or completely miss their 'targets'. The reason they have become so commonplace in recent years is increased air traffic. The checkerboard and parallel patterns are a result of winds pushing previous trails while planes following the original, prescribed path make new ones. As this goes on, the old ones drift in the direction of the wind and new ones keep the process going.

Now, for weather control, HAARP's primary capability is to get rid of clouds by heating chemical trails (they do exist, but are very limited to location and operation) to evaporate them.

Besides, this theory requires a government to spend how much on chemicals being continuously sprayed in the atmosphere, while it can barely pay its civil servants.

So, cost, capability, and reason are all against this phenomenon

 

[Pulsar]

Jay, I met my first chemtrailer today! :lol:
Every now and then, our astronomy department is contacted by some nutjob, usually a moonhoaxer or someone who 'proved' Einstein wrong. But today I got a call from a chemtrailer... apparently the insanity has crossed the ocean (must be from all those chemicals). Well, thanks to the League, I was well prepared to deal with this guy. He actually thanked me for the polite discussion, although he regretted my delusion
I'm fascinated by these kind of people: they somehow manage to function 'normally' in society, yet some part of their brain has snapped, and they see conspiracies everywhere - yet they don't seem to get how ludicrous their 'theories' are...
and it's impossible to reason with them: every source that refutes their nonsense is of course part of the conspiracy :roll:

 

[SynapticMisfire]

Pretty compelling photographs:

This is a Boeing 777-200LR Worldliner that's undergoing flight testing. The barrels are full of water, which gets pumped around to simulate the movement of passengers and flight crew within the plane, since the plane needs to be able to cope with it's centre of gravity changing every time someone goes to the toilet.

This is a Boeing NKC-135 Stratotanker that's been modified to spray a fine water mist. It's used to test the effects of ice formation on aircraft; the water mist simulates a cloud of super-cooled water droplets and the aircraft to be tested flies behind the tanker, where the water droplets freeze on contact with the aircraft and coat it in a layer of ice. It has the advantage of being able to be turned off before the aircraft crashes, which isn't the case with naturally occurring clouds of super-cooled water droplets.

This is a plane that's operated by the Department of Energy, registration number N701BN, which is used for atmospheric sampling. It flies downwind of coal-fired power stations and things like that and takes air samples which are later analysed for pollutants. The nozzle faces forwards, in the direction of travel of the aircraft, so that the movement of the aircraft forces air into the nozzle.

I also witnessed a defined trail that distinctly stops at one point, as if the nozzles had been turned off.

This happens when an aircraft enters a region of air that's too warm or dry for contrails to form or persist. It can even happen repeatedly as an aircraft travels along a boundary between a layer of warm/dry air and a layer of cold/humid air, which causes the aircraft to leave a dashed line of contrails across the sky, tracing atmospheric waves in the boundary between the layers.

Here's a good site for more information: http://contrailscience.com/contrail-or-chemtrail/

 

[simonecuttlefish]

OK. Kent Hovind on human population control, the New World Order, and low and behold, chemtrails. JESUS!


So, if Kents says it's real, we know it's SHITE!