Chaos

[digitalbuddha48]

I recently watched The Dark Knight and American Gangster (for like the millionth time) and it got me thinking : Can there be any type of order in chaos? Wiki describes chaos as being a state lacking order or predictability.

In The Dark Knight (as I'm sure everyone knows) the Joker constantly brings up this concept of living w/o rules, w/o order, etc. Now I know chaos is present in many aspects of our lives (chance, randomness) but from a political view, is it possible for a government to be based around chaos? This seems like a dumb question because I feel it's the opposite of what government tries to do: enforce justice/order. But what if (and believe me this is a big "what if") there was a government that basically let its citizens do what they wanted? Could this even be plausible?

Now American Gangster on the other hand, enforces the idea of an established order/hierarchy; that chaos is bad and that it demotes humans to primitive animals. But is a pyramid scheme for society really the best? When I think about it, I can't help but come to the conclusion that traditional order promotes social chaos because it creates a gap in human interaction and understanding.

If chaos were to reign I feel that anarchy would arise, but is that bad? Not to keep quoting Wikipedia, but it defines anarchism as those who advocate the absence of the state, arguing that common sense would allow people to come together in agreement to form a functional society allowing for the participants to freely develop their own sense of morality, ethics or principled behaviour.

This seems favorable to me at first glance, but then again it reminds me a lot of communism.

Anyways I'd like to read your thoughts on the matter but I would like to keep the subject of "chaos" in the political realm if possible.

 

[lrkun]

http://www.sciencespo.site.ulb.ac.be/dossiers_membres/dandoy-regis/fichiers/dandoy-regis-publication18.pdf

Abstract:
The introduction of the notion of chaos, derived from the chaos theory as developed in
mathematical and physics sciences, into the study of socio-political phenomena allow us to
better understand the dynamic evolution of these non-linear systems. This paper intends to
review the still embryonic literature regarding the application of the chaos theory in political
science, particularly into the fields of public policies and international relations. The modelling
and prediction attempts made using non-linear tools (such as the mathematical
transformations, the fractal objects and other graphic and quantitative methods applicable to
the specificities of the socio-political data) reveal the original asset of the chaos for social
sciences. Using examples and cases studies, we will attempt to develop and show the pertinence
of these original concepts (such as the bifurcations, the strange attractors, or the sensivity to
initial conditions) as well as the analysis and prediction tools associated to them in order to
apprehend and understand political phenomena whose behaviour seem to be, at first sight,
random or at least unpredictable.

^-^ check it out.

 

[RichardMNixon]

defines anarchism as those who advocate the absence of the state, arguing that common sense would allow people to come together in agreement to form a functional society allowing for the participants to freely develop their own sense of morality, ethics or principled behaviour.

I really can't take this claim seriously. Some form of government is absolutely necessary. Is there one example of a successful, stateless community of greater than 5,000 people that has existed in the past 1000 years?

 

[PAB]

Chaos in the political realm is called democracy. Understood better that democracy as concept is rule over all the people by all the people thus contradicting the common understanding of rule itself . (one of the paradox's of democracy is anarchy )

 

[lrkun]

Chaos in the political realm is called democracy. Understood better that democracy as concept is rule over all the people by all the people thus contradicting the common understanding of rule itself . (one of the paradox's of democracy is anarchy )

How do you distinguish a republican democracy from pure democracy?

 

[PAB]

Chaos in the political realm is called democracy. Understood better that democracy as concept is rule over all the people by all the people thus contradicting the common understanding of rule itself . (one of the paradox's of democracy is anarchy )

How do you distinguish a republican democracy from pure democracy?

Republican democracy, I think, is characterised by the voting system (people have part of the power). There is then an oligarchy which distinguishes those who are given power from the people. Pure democracy is the ideology/ belief. In which contrasted to a Democratic republic would be a question of more democracy , upon the democracy. For example a communism is a method of more democracy as opposed to liberal capitalism.

 

[Divergedwoods]

It's not quite the same thing, but it makes an interesting analogy as to how order can arise from chaos, maybe not in an immediate first instance, but looking deeper into it you can find the underlying order
[Youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Qe5Enm96MFQ[/Youtube]
Within the context of social behaviors and structures, its hard (if not impossible) to reach a point of a chaotic society (which ironically would by definition be consistent and stable in its chaos) humans are by nature and instinct, orderly in their behavior which is the reason why we have a society in the first place

 

[Jengopockets]

Now what if we could say there were degrees of chaos. As we know nothing is black and white. Can chaos maybe be inevitable, are we unable to actually bring order but it's merely an Illusion that we as humans try to create. So my proposal to you is that order cannot be achieved only the illusion of order can.

 

[lrkun]

Now what if we could say there were degrees of chaos. As we know nothing is black and white. Can chaos maybe be inevitable, are we unable to actually bring order but it's merely an Illusion that we as humans try to create. So my proposal to you is that order cannot be achieved only the illusion of order can.

If you are familiar with the chaos theory, and no, not the linkin park album, you will have a glimpse of order amidst the chaos. It is best illustrated with fractals.

 

[Jengopockets]

If you are familiar with the chaos theory, and no, not the linkin park album, you will have a glimpse of order amidst the chaos. It is best illustrated with fractals.

Where can I find info about this chaos theory?

 

[Yfelsung]

Nothing is either purely chaotic or purely ordered.

These are words we've invented to attempt to describe things in a way we can understand.

I've always liked to say, "The universe is neither chaotic or ordered, it simply is."

You could apply this to nearly anything that has perceived degrees of order or chaos.

Two people could look at the same thing and see it differently. Take the solar system. One sees it as this perfect ballet of order, each planet in its place, a nearly perfect equilibrium of gravity. Another sees the wobbles in the orbit, the millions of meteor impacts that would ever so slight change the orientation of the planets they strike.

The same thing, but one sees order and the other sees chaos.

To bring this more in line with the topic at hand, look at our society as it is now. Some see us as this pinnacle of order and virtue. The western world, champions of law and freedom *insets tongue firmly into cheek*. But you can see beneath the surface and see constant chaos. The underground economy, black markets, slavery still existing in the form of forced prostitution and the like. The two forces, the force of order and the force of chaos constantly interact and neither wins for they are necessary for each other to exist.

Really, they are one thing, they are flux.

 

[lrkun]

If you are familiar with the chaos theory, and no, not the linkin park album, you will have a glimpse of order amidst the chaos. It is best illustrated with fractals.

Where can I find info about this chaos theory?

http://www.sciencespo.site.ulb.ac.be/dossiers_membres/dandoy-regis/fichiers/dandoy-regis-publication18.pdf

Abstract:
The introduction of the notion of chaos, derived from the chaos theory as developed in
mathematical and physics sciences, into the study of socio-political phenomena allow us to
better understand the dynamic evolution of these non-linear systems. This paper intends to
review the still embryonic literature regarding the application of the chaos theory in political
science, particularly into the fields of public policies and international relations. The modelling
and prediction attempts made using non-linear tools (such as the mathematical
transformations, the fractal objects and other graphic and quantitative methods applicable to
the specificities of the socio-political data) reveal the original asset of the chaos for social
sciences. Using examples and cases studies, we will attempt to develop and show the pertinence
of these original concepts (such as the bifurcations, the strange attractors, or the sensivity to
initial conditions) as well as the analysis and prediction tools associated to them in order to
apprehend and understand political phenomena whose behaviour seem to be, at first sight,
random or at least unpredictable.

^-^ check it out.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chaos_theory

http://www.google.com/search?ie=UTF-8&oe=UTF-8&sourceid=navclient&gfns=1&q=fractals

 

[DarkSpike]

In my opinion you have to observe the hole in order to determine whether something is chaotic or ordered.
As for a state/country as soon as we determine a common behavior, usually defined by its form of government, we call it ordered, of course there will be chaos at some point, but generally there is order.
When there is no common behavior or form of state we can no longer call it ordered as everyone is able to do what they want. The hole state/country now looks like chaos, but still there will be order in it as the humans will form groups with their rules.