Challenge : Can you turn me into an atheist?

[Worldquest]

I'm sure some of you good people aren't too bothered about converting people to atheism, however I'm sure there are some of you who would very much like to do that. I'm going to give those people a chance to convert me.

Not many theists would do this, so do please at the very least appreciate that much. My idea of open minded may be different to yours, but generally speaking, I'm open minded enough to reconsider what I believe. I find atheism as interesting as theism (well, close enough) and it doesn't hurt to learn. I'm not making any promises though, obviously, it depends on whether or not you concvine me.

I'm not going to try and convince you to believe (although I may need to explain why I do), the offer is the other way around. I'm inviting you to convince me not to believe. Generally, for some reason, people tend to change their minds on their own, however the idea here is to establish which methods, if any, work best to make theists reconsider.

Like I say I'm open minded. If anyone posts a link or gives any explanations about anything, please make sure it's reasonably simple and straightforward.

 

[Aught3]

To be honest I think this is a bit of a silly thread. Most Christians (or other theists) lose their religion after a long period of doubts, questioning, and introspection. I suppose it can happen quickly through a sudden loss or trauma, but I don't think emotional reasons are particularly good ones in this case.

I you are doubting your faith or have questions then by all means, ask! But I'm not going to sit here and try to take away your religious beliefs and I doubt anyone else will either.

 

[Worldquest]

To be honest I think this is a bit of a silly thread. Most Christians (or other theists) lose their religion after a long period of doubts, questioning, and introspection. I suppose it can happen quickly through a sudden loss or trauma, but I don't think emotional reasons are particularly good ones in this case.

I you are doubting your faith or have questions then by all means, ask! But I'm not going to sit here and try to take away your religious beliefs and I doubt anyone else will either.

I'm not having doubts. By the way do you speak spanish?

 

[Aught3]

No, I just like Goya's etching.

 

[Deleted member 619]

To be honest I think this is a bit of a silly thread.

This.

 

[5810Singer]

OK, so if we can't convert him to atheism, can we convert him to LPG?

Gotta make the best of a bad job, like....

 

[Unwardil]

Alright, well I'll give it a shot.

Sort of.

First of all, I'm going to acknowledge that everyone has their own intuitive beliefs about the world. It's impossible not to. I admit to 'believing' in many an unprovable notion, such that any sufficiently complex system, viewed from the right scale, would display signs of life. Even inanimate objects. This is a totally untestable and besides, simply holding that belief doesn't really affect anything. Is the earth 'alive'? Maybe. If it is, how does that change things? It doesn't. Ok then. All that makes it is a sort of romantic notion. Romantic notions make life worth living so it's worth holding that belief, until I can think of something better.

If God and religion are the same thing for you, no one should have the right to take that away from you, nor should they.

Unless you start letting those introspective beliefs start to adversely affect others as organized religions. If I were to start, oh, I dunno, refusing medical treatment for my children because I thought the living earth would take offense at going against nature, then we'd have a problem and someone should tell me 'Look, your beliefs are your own and that's cool, but get a f-ing grip you lunatic'.

So my philosophy for you is this. Live as if there is no god, whatever you believe. Make decisions as if their earthly results are the only ones you get and that the only judgments that will be cast upon them are those of your friends and loved ones or of random strangers who may be affected as well. If there is a God who will take any measure to remain anonymous, we can't know of it's existence one way or the other. If you derive meaning in life from believing in God, that's great, but don't let that belief take the driver's seat and silence it when it's trying to be a back seat driver.

This goes for atheists who believe in stupid crap as well and they exist, you'd better 'believe' and I'd tell them the same thing. Be self aware and try to see when your decisions are being influenced by irrational beliefs and put those decisions under intense scrutiny but by no means give up the irrational beliefs.

Hope that's satisfactory to you anyway.

 

[Ozymandyus]

That really depends on why you believe.

Chances are if you and I were friends and were able to have many long discussions about the existence or non-existence of God, I could turn you into an atheist. Though I wouldn't try unless you were interested, which you apparently are... And the first and most important discussion would probably go something like this: Why do you believe in God?
And you may well ask me Why don't you?
To which I would say, ' Because I have looked and looked for him, and found nothing. I have looked in His 'Chosen People', and seen nothing that makes them Good. And I have pondered his supposed characteristics and his supposed creation and found endless contradictions and concluded that the only logical explanation is that he does not exist.'

But that was my journey to non-belief, one that took many conversations and much time spent thinking as clear-headedly as possible. I would not presume to get you there in some thread on the internet.

As for this challenge: I can understand why you would think that atheists in general would jump at this chance... Many people think atheists are always running around trying to convince people to not believe so strongly in God. Most of us are simply trying to make people understand that we really truly do not believe - it's not some joke, or some misunderstanding on the meaning of God... And we most importantly have to make a point of it because too often those who do believe in God are trying to convince us, or force us to act according to what their God has supposedly told them. But I appreciate that you are open minded, and good luck on your search for the truth.

 

[Andiferous]

That really depends on why you believe.

Chances are if you and I were friends and were able to have many long discussions about the existence or non-existence of God, I could turn you into an atheist. Though I wouldn't try unless you were interested, which you apparently are... And the first and most important discussion would probably go something like this: Why do you believe in God?
And you may well ask me Why don't you?
To which I would say, ' Because I have looked and looked for him, and found nothing. I have looked in His 'Chosen People', and seen nothing that makes them Good. And I have pondered his supposed characteristics and his supposed creation and found endless contradictions and concluded that the only logical explanation is that he does not exist.'

But that was my journey to non-belief, one that took many conversations and much time spent thinking as clear-headedly as possible. I would not presume to get you there in some thread on the internet.

As for this challenge: I can understand why you would think that atheists in general would jump at this chance... Many people think atheists are always running around trying to convince people to not believe so strongly in God. Most of us are simply trying to make people understand that we really truly do not believe - it's not some joke, or some misunderstanding on the meaning of God... And we most importantly have to make a point of it because too often those who do believe in God are trying to convince us, or force us to act according to what their God has supposedly told them. But I appreciate that you are open minded, and good luck on your search for the truth.

Well said.

 

[Gnug215]

I'm sure some of you good people aren't too bothered about converting people to atheism, however I'm sure there are some of you who would very much like to do that. I'm going to give those people a chance to convert me.

Not many theists would do this, so do please at the very least appreciate that much. My idea of open minded may be different to yours, but generally speaking, I'm open minded enough to reconsider what I believe. I find atheism as interesting as theism (well, close enough) and it doesn't hurt to learn. I'm not making any promises though, obviously, it depends on whether or not you concvine me.

I'm not going to try and convince you to believe (although I may need to explain why I do), the offer is the other way around. I'm inviting you to convince me not to believe. Generally, for some reason, people tend to change their minds on their own, however the idea here is to establish which methods, if any, work best to make theists reconsider.

Like I say I'm open minded. If anyone posts a link or gives any explanations about anything, please make sure it's reasonably simple and straightforward.

Hi Worldquest!

While I appreciate your post and your open-mindedness, I think it's a bit strange to talk about being converted into atheism.
(Since atheism is really a position that is in the negative to an actual positive claim, more than it is a claim in itself, as I see it.)

Wouldn't this rather be a question of converting you FROM theism?

And to that end, like someone (Ozy - great post, btw) has mentioned already, we'd really need to know what kind of specific beliefs you had, and address them specifically.

So perhaps rather than you asking us to generally convert you to atheism, how about stating some of the specific beliefs you have, your reasons for believing, and then we can have a discussion about those?

I mean, otherwise I could basically sit here and say: "I'm an atheist because I like cake!", and that wouldn't do a thing for you.
Incidentally, I'm not an atheist, and I don't like all cake (very few, actually.)

I hope that makes sense?

 

[Worldquest]

Unwardil -

Good answer. That's the kind of reply I was hoping for, and although you're not quite trying to convince me to stop believing, what you're saying is interesting, and worth talking about. What you're basically saying is that we all on some level, or most of us, or at least many of us, have a few beliefs, but the difference is in letting them affect daily life in negative ways, or not.

But if you have a belief, I mean if you genuinely believe something, it will affect your life and your behaviour. I believe or trust in gravity which is why when I drop things I'm certain that they'll fall. I never behave as though it won't, I expect it to fall, the belief affects my behaviour. You can't for example genuinely believe that after you die you'll reincarnate, and then live in fear of death being the end. That's why I genuinely don't fear death. It's a belief that has a positive effect on me, in that I don't worry about dying.

What you're suggesting is picking and choosing how to be affected by a belief, yet still having the belief, but you can't have a belief and then choose which ways it's going to affect you. If you believe it, it will, in every relevant way.

Having said that, I know what you're getting at, which is, don't stubbornly apply your beliefs to every single thing in life, without thinking about it first, and keep some things to yourself, especially in sensitive moments. That's good advice, which I agree with. For example, although I believe that we're all connected and that we are all, so to speak, aspects of god, I don't go around addressing people as "hey god" and treating them as though they have infinite knowledge and are all powerful, because obviously that would be ridiculous. I'm quite happy to keep that belief under my hat, unless someone asks.

But yes, good points made.



Ozymandyus -

You seem to be basing your inquiries into god on the bible, and making your judgments on that basis. I've got to be honest and say that if I did that too, and if I judged it solely on what the bible says, I'd be an atheist, no doubt about it, I'm sure. But I haven't done that. I've based my ideas about god on my own thoughts about it.

If you say that atheists are mainly trying to just get others to realise that atheists really, truly, don't believe, I have no problem there, although if I was an atheist I wouldn't be too bothered about others not understanding that. I don't see any payoff in having others understand that, it wouldn't matter to me, it wouldn't be an issue for me.

Besides, if a theist is trying to convince you, and they they think that you're not serious when you say that you really honestly don't believe, and then you do convince them and they get it, you're still left with a discussion of whether or not god does actually exist or not. And anyway I'm sure most theists do understand it when an atheist says that they don't believe. I do.

Anyway the bible is just a bunch of books written by people with their own ideas and opinions. You'll never catch me waving a bible. But if we were friends and we went out for a drink, I'd have no objections to using one as a beermat.

I'll take the new testament, you can have the old.


Gnug -

You're right, in order to convert me from theism, I'll have to say what I believe.

The belief that probably has the most effect on me, and where other beliefs come from, is that there is a creator (this creator is the only thing that exists), and that everything is connected.

 

[Deleted member 619]

And anyway I'm sure most theists do understand it when an atheist says that they don't believe.

A wealth of evidence disagrees with you.

For my part, I have little interest in whether or not a deity exists, beyond the curiosity I have for all things. It wouldn't affect my atheism if you introduced me to a really good deity right this minute. I have no god, nor any want or need of one, regardless of whether or not one exists.

Anyhoo...

The belief that probably has the most effect on me, and where other beliefs come from, is that there is a creator (this creator is the only thing that exists), and that everything is connected.

This interests me. I have had a few discussions on the nature of existence of late, and I have drawn some conclusions. In a rigorous definition of the word 'universe', namely 'all that exists' (there is a history to this word and its usage that has to be taken into account, and I'm happy to discuss that if you wish), then it is not such a stretch to define the universe as existence itself. This would mean that any creator entity would necessarily be part of, and therefore contingent upon, the universe.

Given your definition of this creator entity as the only thing that exists, then we share a position, though it's clear that we differ in the details. What you call god, I call the universe. I simply remove the teleology. The word 'god' carries connotations that are entirely unnecessary in this regard. If you defined god as the universe, not many people here would disagree with you, although they may have something to say about the use of the word 'god' for the reasons already detailed.

 

[MRaverz]

Atheism is the default position, it's a position which states 'I do not see sufficient evidence for the existence of a god'.

As such, everyone was once an Atheist - but at some point some people think they've found evidence for a God.

Therefore, look at this apparent evidence. Present it to me if you wish. If you feel that it doesn't hold enough water, you should maintain the Atheist position.

If you feel that it's sufficient evidence, share it with us. Most of us are open to evidence for a god, after all if you know something we don't - we want to know what it is!


I am an Atheist because I see no evidence for a god. If evidence arises, I will have to change my position. It's not about picking a football team, it's about deciding whether or not something exists. The default is to say that something does not exist unless there is evidence for it.

Simples.

 

[MRaverz]

Oh and there is evidence against a god too.

From problems of evil etc. to contradictions within the definition. My favourite is on omnipotence; could god lift a rock which he has created to be too heavy to lift? Either way, he's not all powerful.

Another is to do with Omniscience. If you know everything, you cannot change your mind. Yet each Holy Book shows a certain god making a decision then changing it.


If you want to rid yourself of a specific god, read the holy texts. They're all self-contradicting.

 

[Worldquest]

MRavers -

The idea here is for you to take me from theism ("back") to atheism. Refuting the bible isn't necessary.

 

[Deleted member 619]

If you want to rid yourself of a specific god, read the holy texts. They're all self-contradicting.

This.

In the bible, there are three verses that nail the biblical god to the wall, and that's even before you get anywhere near the problems of the omnis.

1 John 4:8 (NLT) - "God is love." 1 Corinthians 13:4 (NLT) - "Love is not jealous." Exodus 20:5 (NLT) - "I the LORD thy God am a jealous God

 

[Deleted member 619]

MRavers -

The idea here is for you to take me from theism ("back") to atheism. Refuting the bible isn't necessary.

That depends. Your position is not clearly defined. If you support the biblical god, then it is necessary to refute the attributes assigned to the deity in the babble.

 

[borrofburi]

As others have said, "deconversion" is a long process. There is a whole thread of "deconversion" stories on this forum, as well as many good ones on youtube; the two I'd like to highlight are:
Evid3nc3's series on his deconversion:
(he starts out speaking in a funny pattern, he gets better as time goes on): http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=12rP8ybp13s&feature=PlayList&p=BE54B17BFFA519D4&playnext_from=PL&playnext=1&index=2

and TheraminTrees has two very good videos on his deconversion:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xyE8wUteFA4
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=A0WwZc-Vz7Y

The theme for both of those was that it was a long involved process.

You seem to be basing your inquiries into god on the bible, and making your judgments on that basis. I've got to be honest and say that if I did that too, and if I judged it solely on what the bible says, I'd be an atheist, no doubt about it, I'm sure. But I haven't done that. I've based my ideas about god on my own thoughts about it.
...
The belief that probably has the most effect on me, and where other beliefs come from, is that there is a creator (this creator is the only thing that exists), and that everything is connected.

Sounds like deism to me. If you're a deist (or some approximation of one), then I see no point in caring about what you believe: how does it affect your day to day life? Do you think this god really really cares about who we have sex with and will send us to hell if we commit thought crime? Are you convinced that the existence of god means evolution is wrong even though all scientific evidence points conclusively towards evolution? These are the questions that matter to me; deists tend to answer that their belief that god exists doesn't at all effect their life in any terribly negative way, and I rarely even bother to disagree with deists (or maybe deists and I tend to agree on most issues), especially since there are plenty of bigger problems to worry about.

My primary problem with deism or funny moderate mystical sort of christian beliefs (who accept science) is: why? I mean it has no major influence on your life, and god remains indistinguishable from nothing, so why believe it? Is "I don't know" really that horrible of an answer? If your evidence is personal experience, why on earth are you so very credulous of your own senses and memory? If your evidence is historical, why on earth are you so credulous of other people? If you have no evidence, why continue to believe it?

 

[MRaverz]

MRavers -

The idea here is for you to take me from theism ("back") to atheism. Refuting the bible isn't necessary.

What evidence leads you to believing that a god exists?

Once we debunk it, you'll automatically be an Atheist.

Unless your beliefs are held without evidence, which would mean you don't actually care about the truth.

 

[Worldquest]

MRavers -

The idea here is for you to take me from theism ("back") to atheism. Refuting the bible isn't necessary.

What evidence leads you to believing that a god exists?

Once we debunk it, you'll automatically be an Atheist.

Unless your beliefs are held without evidence, which would mean you don't actually care about the truth.

I don't have evidence as such, but I do care about the truth. What I have is conviction, a strong feeling, call it intuition, a hunch, that there's a god.