Bullying.

[ohcac]

:?: :?: :?: :?: :?:

Why the sarcastic responses to my post? I merely suggested that school should not be compulsory *especially* in cases where kids have a shitty time every fucking waking hour of their life because of it.

If schools are not compulsory how do you espect the general population from getting a decent education, people are generaly are already dumb and make very poor decisions as it is, not having a standard of education will never help on that aspect. How do you justify in your mind that droping school is the apropriate response for bullying?

You don't understand. I never said that society shouldn't have a compulsory *education* standard, I said that society shouldn't make *attendance at the institution of a school* compulsory especially if the child hates being around peers because they make his/her life shit every waking second.

You want to force kids to show competence in certain curricula? Fine, go ahead. You want to force them to drag their feet off to school every morning even if it means getting harassed like crazy, having the shit beat out of them by assholes, and having their shit stolen for eight hours every weekday for 9 months? That's almost wicked.

 

[Andiferous]

I think it was two things that got rid of people bullying me. One crucial step was that I just decided not to care about their insults. When they yelled something like "[my name] is gay!" (and that really was the extend how sophisticated our 7th grade insults on the best days got) I just glanced at the yeller long enough for him to know I heard him and then resumed my interrupted conversation. When I started feeling more comfortable with this, I started adding a little chuckle.

On reflection I think there was some behaviour-cognitive psychotherapy going on on my part. When I started acting like their insults and opinions meant nothing to me (and to be honest I never cared for their opinions anyways. My concern always was would my friends have less respect for me because this insulting was something that I couldn't stop) the less it started to register at all. It is certainly very elementary psychology that any insult you could hope to throw at someone to gain power over him instantly loses all goals to that end if the receiver considers it at best as a minor distraction, and at worse plainly amusing.

This is all of course just reflection on my part and my 13-year-old brain only had a fleeting glimpse of the questionable clarity I have over psychological concepts now. The reason I started using this approach to insults was mimicking life long friend and a girl who happened to be very popular but nevertheless a victim of many cruel gossips. The way she handled them was superb. On on-going gossip was that she regularly filled her bra with paper. Because of this I often called her jokingly, and on moodier days with dripping hostility, finnish equivalent of "paper cups". All she ever did was laugh on it and it always completely disarmed any insult that any hostile could have ever meant.

The other thing I did was confront bullies if the harassment ever went past slinging insults. The moment it was physical or another thing I couldn't just shrug off I engaged in "arm wrestle". I don't know how to describe it, but it was the most serious type of "fight" we 7th graders usually engaged in and it always gathered a crowd. That was when I noticed that none of the bullies really wanted to fight. They are just like everyone. The less you question their authority the more comfortable they are to step over their comfort zone to try you. Establish clear boundaries with them with consistent punishment against violating them, and like with dogs they'll end up respecting them. It isn't that they couldn't punish you more than you can them, but just the overall promise that there will be confrontation. I think most high school bullies are actually quite scared of that, even though they'd have good reason to think they'll come out on top. It also happens to be the definition of cowardice.

The majority of my own issues took place in primary school, and like you, I learned various ways to manipulate the problem. In new schools, I shrank away from confrontation and didn't speak back to insults, but I think that particular method requires oodles of strength. When I was most confrontational, the situation became more difficult (which is unfortunate for the self-esteem of young 'uns.)

What do you mean?

Children should be educated by osmosis.

Translation is nice, a sort of constructive criticism answer might be helpful, to endure; (even I couldn't sustain it in the long run).

 

[Andiferous]

:?: :?: :?: :?: :?:

Why the sarcastic responses to my post? I merely suggested that school should not be compulsory *especially* in cases where kids have a shitty time every fucking waking hour of their life because of it.

If schools are not compulsory how do you espect the general population from getting a decent education, people are generaly are already dumb and make very poor decisions as it is, not having a standard of education will never help on that aspect. How do you justify in your mind that droping school is the apropriate response for bullying?

I'm completely with you, Ohcac, in wishing that society was a whole lot better; but human minds and personalities tend to dominate society as I know it. There must be a learning process somewhere within the whole procedure, but I know it's not nice to see.

 

[Master_Ghost_Knight]

You don't understand. I never said that society shouldn't have a compulsory *education* standard, I said that society shouldn't make *attendance at the institution of a school* compulsory especially if the child hates being around peers because they make his/her life shit every waking second.

You want to force kids to show competence in certain curricula? Fine, go ahead. You want to force them to drag their feet off to school every morning even if it means getting harassed like crazy, having the shit beat out of them by assholes, and having their shit stolen for eight hours every weekday for 9 months? That's almost wicked.

So you are saying you rather have them homeschooled?

 

[Welshidiot]

IMO, the best solution to bullying is watchful teachers doing their job properly.

I sincerely hope we all share enough of a common frame of reference that I don't have to explain my preceding sentence any further.

 

[Case]

Slightly unrelated, but I vividly remember a particular bullying incident.

There was this big guy (about 1,70-1,80m at age ~10) who had repeated third or fourth grade; he was also a big bully. Because of his size, there really weren't any kids who could rival his physical strength. I was pretty short at the time, maybe 1,30-1,40m, but I had always been very decisive in my actions. Whenever I had to fight, I fought viciously - since for me "fighting" usually meant being up against a group of other kids (since teaming up against individuals is what dipshits do) so holding back wouldn't have helped much. Still, I didn't exactly like having to fight. One day, big guy decided he'd bully a girl I was close friends with, which made me feel compelled to defend her. First I jumped up and had him in a choke-hold, we wrestled a bit... turned out I wasn't strong enough to fend him off after all (plus his reach was so much greater than mine). In a flash, I came up with another plan and shouted "Hey, want to play a game?" even though we had never played before, so it was kind of absurd. To my surprise, he instantly cheered up and was really enthusiastic about the idea...

Hurt kids hurt kids.

 

[ImprobableJoe]

Slightly unrelated, but I vividly remember a particular bullying incident.

There was this big guy (about 1,70-1,80m at age ~10) who had repeated third or fourth grade; he was also a big bully. Because of his size, there really weren't any kids who could rival his physical strength. I was pretty short at the time, maybe 1,30-1,40m, but I had always been very decisive in my actions. Whenever I had to fight, I fought viciously - since for me "fighting" usually meant being up against a group of other kids (since teaming up against individuals is what dipshits do) so holding back wouldn't have helped much. Still, I didn't exactly like having to fight. One day, big guy decided he'd bully a girl I was close friends with, which made me feel compelled to defend her. First I jumped up and had him in a choke-hold, we wrestled a bit... turned out I wasn't strong enough to fend him off after all (plus his reach was so much greater than mine). In a flash, I came up with another plan and shouted "Hey, want to play a game?" even though we had never played before, so it was kind of absurd. To my surprise, he instantly cheered up and was really enthusiastic about the idea...

Hurt kids hurt kids.

Yeah...

In my experience with childhood bullies, you could stand up to them and sometimes wind up turning them into friends, or at least not enemies anymore.

 

[Andiferous]

I wonder about this from my experience (and your statement, Case)... I was either up or down in popularity within school to extremes. So perhaps, given this conversation, individuals proporting unique ideals are gambling either way...

 

[ImprobableJoe]

Fuck. This kid was bullied:



Now he's dead. Suicide. Because the bullying didn't stop. I don't have any answers, all I have right now is rage and grief and more rage.

 

[ohcac]

So you are saying you rather have them homeschooled?

I am saying that the parent should be complicit in homeschooling the child especially if the child gets bullied constantly. Listen, I know that homeschooling is often associated negatively with crap like religious indoctrination and is often tabooed for the claim that it inhibits good social behavior. These dubious claims aside, situations like the tragic case posted by ImprobableJoe involving extremely negative peer to peer interactions suggest that the best solution may be to bring about a swift end to the interactions altogether and have a positive atmosphere provided by the family (if it is determined that the family environment is less shitty. As for the case if it's not, then I'm afraid I have few answers, except to say that if the parenting at home is worse than bullying, then an abuse lawsuit should be brought into consideration).

You can only place compulsory school attendance at a certain priority level, and it is not the highest one for children sometimes.

 

[Master_Ghost_Knight]

I am saying that the parent should be complicit in homeschooling the child especially if the child gets bullied constantly. Listen, I know that homeschooling is often associated negatively with crap like religious indoctrination and is often tabooed for the claim that it inhibits good social behavior. These dubious claims aside, situations like the tragic case posted by ImprobableJoe involving extremely negative peer to peer interactions suggest that the best solution may be to bring about a swift end to the interactions altogether and have a positive atmosphere provided by the family (if it is determined that the family environment is less shitty. As for the case if it's not, then I'm afraid I have few answers, except to say that if the parenting at home is worse than bullying, then an abuse lawsuit should be brought into consideration).

You can only place compulsory school attendance at a certain priority level, and it is not the highest one for children sometimes.

And since when is your parent qualified or even apt to give the minimal standard of education to their children?

I figured you meant homeschooling from the start, you just hijacked the topic of bullying so that you can put forward your libertarian argument that people should be able to homeschool their children if they so chose.

You want to expand on this subject, make another topic. As far as I am concern Andiferous is neither capable, able or willing to homeschool; it is in no way shape or form the apropriate response to bullying; and there are reasons why someone advocating for homeschooling shouldn't have a place at the table of discution when it comes to education.

 

[Welshidiot]

I am saying that the parent should be complicit in homeschooling the child especially if the child gets bullied constantly.

com,·plic,·it (km-plst)
adj.
Associated with or participating in a questionable act or a crime; having complicity.

Listen, I know that homeschooling is often associated negatively with crap like religious indoctrination and is often tabooed for the claim that it inhibits good social behavior. These dubious claims aside,

The claims about home-schooling aren't dubious, they're based on observed fact,...the only point of debate on that score is whether home-schooling is universally bad.

situations like the tragic case posted by ImprobableJoe involving extremely negative peer to peer interactions suggest that the best solution may be to bring about a swift end to the interactions altogether and have a positive atmosphere provided by the family (if it is determined that the family environment is less shitty. As for the case if it's not, then I'm afraid I have few answers, except to say that if the parenting at home is worse than bullying, then an abuse lawsuit should be brought into consideration).

You can only place compulsory school attendance at a certain priority level, and it is not the highest one for children sometimes.

Btw, who should bring the abuse lawsuit against the parents?

 

[australopithecus]

I typed a near-essay in reply to this and then realised it was mostly stuff about my schooling that I didn't want to share or was nobody else's business. So I'm making this shorter:

Andie asked how you stop bullying? You can't. Kid's can be vicious and cruel for any number of reasons. School internal support, in my experience, is woeful with staff more interested in maintaining a facade of "nothing ever bad happens here", and parents are useless doe-eyed "my child never would" fantasists. My previous conclusion was to suggest shooting bullies in the stomach and let them die slowly, however that's my bias talking. In reality you do you best to deal with it when it happens by open honest means.

 

[Welshidiot]

I typed a near-essay in reply to this and then realised it was mostly stuff about my schooling that I didn't want to share or was nobody else's business. So I'm making this shorter:

Andie asked how you stop bullying? You can't. Kid's can be vicious and cruel for any number of reasons. School internal support, in my experience, is woeful with staff more interested in maintaining a facade of "nothing ever bad happens here", and parents are useless doe-eyed "my child never would" fantasists. My previous conclusion was to suggest shooting bullies in the stomach and let them die slowly, however that's my bias talking. In reality you do you best to deal with it when it happens by open honest means.

I commend you for your level-headed response, and tend to agree with your assessment.

 

[Independent Vision]

I was a sporty girl and quite popular with all kids before grade one to two. After that... well... bullying went on through to grade ten. Bullying doesn't magically stop. That is teasing. Teasing might stop, and boyish pranks might. Male on female bullying and physical bullying in my experience does not stop until you get away from the source, especially if the teachers can't deal with it.

For me it turned into mental, physical and sexual bullying/harassment as the years went on.

Retaliating doesn't work. Guys gang up, girls stand alone. Much more alone so than guys. Bunch of guys on one girl? No, you stand very alone.

Worse case scenario is not ending up with a kid who bullies themselves, worse case scenario is ending up with a kid who needs therapy and medication to get back to basics, years later than everyone else. I know.

I want to wring the neck of everyone who thinks bullying is solved by a swift fist to the nose. It is not. I tried it. Many times. I got my head smashed into marble floors for it. Don't listen to those morons.
Bullying isn't solved by ignoring it. If it is bullying it doesn't go away, it escalates.

Step in now, be proactive. Fight with tooth and claw... so to speak. I can tell you the worse case scenario as to what can happen to your daughter despite having the best parents just on the virtue of being clueless of what to do.

Get her out... now. If the school cannot get it done, you have to.

Bullying is not teasing, bullying is harassment, physical and mental abuse and can develop into sexual abuse if the girl is left with the same kids year after year.

 

[Andiferous]

Thank you for the input, although I'm still interested in reading responses.

I pulled my daughter out of that school a couple of months ago and started anew in another school with no affiliation. I've asked her for over a year if she would like to transfer, and when she became very serious about answering yes, she was transferred within three days, and her attitude has taken a complete turn for the better. (Glad to say). She's actually gained the confidence and friendship to become quite eccentric without too much fear, but that's another story.

I still hate to see it, and I guess the idea of bullying is becoming a larger issue on social media and the internet. That worries me as a parent, because in my elementary school days, we didn't have to face schoolyard bullying in the home, but now kids get to be humiliated on a potentially global scale everywhere and all the time, and often anonymously. I really hate bullies, myself. Maybe I ought to become a Luddite.

 

[Andiferous]

As far as I am concern Andiferous is neither capable, able or willing to homeschool; it is in no way shape or form the apropriate response to bullying; and there are reasons why someone advocating for homeschooling shouldn't have a place at the table of discution when it comes to education.

I know you didn't mean badly here, but ouch.

 

[Master_Ghost_Knight]

I know you didn't mean badly here, but ouch.

I'm really sorry if that came out wrong, I didn't really mean to imply that you were somehow incompetent, neither it is out of the ordinary. If I had kids I do recognise that I wouldn't be able provide a good quality standard of education to my kids by homeschooling them. I suspect that this would be the case for 99% of people. Sure I could provide agood knowledge of math a physics, but an education must encompass a wider spectrum such as language, history, philosophy and so forth that unfortunatly my set of skills does not encompass enough to make for a good education standard.

 

[Andiferous]

I know you didn't mean badly here, but ouch.

I'm really sorry if that came out wrong, I didn't really mean to imply that you were somehow incompetent, neither it is out of the ordinary. If I had kids I do recognise that I wouldn't be able provide a good quality standard of education to my kids by homeschooling them. I suspect that this would be the case for 99% of people. Sure I could provide a good knowledge of math a physics, but an education must encompass a wider spectrum such as language, history, philosophy and so forth that unfortunatly my set of skills does not encompass enough to make for a good education standard.

I just meant to point out the confusion in English for your benefit - I supposed you didn't mean to say that specifically.

Admittedly, part of me did question if I was completely inadequate to teach, but miscommunication is inevitable in any language, which makes things interesting.

From a personal point of view, which supports your point: I try to teach my child as a responsibility of parenting whether 'homeschooling' or otherwise,, but I prefer to have other opinions and perspective available in context. Different teachers and opinions help teach her about these different perspectives and allow her to choose between ideas.. It's tempting to try to control what she believes and how she sees the world because parents really do have the final say (to a point and to a certain age), but I prefer to give her the tools to think for herself without prejudicing her with my own philosophy. This is why I would never feel comfortable homeschooling, and would rather expose her to a variety of opinions while being available to support her in the learning process.

That's one of the reasons I do think that exposure to public education is preferable to homeschooling. In the end, if she's adjusted to thinking for herself and learning for herself, she doesn't need anyone to tell her what to believe. Plus, I hypothesize that there's less chance that she'll rebel against me later on if I support rather than force her personal beliefs to conform to my bias. I honestly am not sure when I will be open to discussing my own beliefs with her - but I suppose I might feel more comfortable when she is capable of having her own.

There are rational reasons against homeschooling, and there are reasons for every parent, I guess - and it's hard to be rational when thinking of kids.

I suppose this is a bit optimistic. But time will tell.