Bullshit, the atheistguy!

[Zylstra]

The law and medicine are quite clear, murder is the intentional killing of a human, and a human is defined as anyone 0+ years old. Abortion is therefore not murder. Abortion is also not the killing of a child, infant, baby, or whatever other term you wish to use, again these are well defined terms all applying to a human post-birth.

(From The War Rant Ed. Forums)


Bullshit!. The killing of another human being is defined as homicide under the law. Murder (along with manslaughter) is unlawful homicide. If you're going to play word games, do at least learn what the words mean.

 

[richi1173]

Well... someone hit the wrong button.

 

[ImprobableJoe]

huh?

 

[RestrictedAccess]

Wow, this is the first time in a long time I've actually been able to respond 'You're right' to the OP of a thread.

Murder is dependent on what the state defines as illegal homicide. If they deem abortion 'illegal homicide', then it becomes murder.

Until then, though, it's just plain homicide (unless it's a 3rd term abortion).

 

[borrofburi]

lol, that specific post seemed to me rather pointless, we're primarily arguing about how the world should be, responding "the world is" doesn't really help.

 

[Fictionarious]

Murder is dependent on what the state defines as illegal homicide. If they deem abortion 'illegal homicide', then it becomes murder.

Until then, though, it's just plain homicide (unless it's a 3rd term abortion).

There are 195 (or so) "states" in the world. Giving each of them carte blanche to define what is or is not murder is as problematic as giving each Greek deity carte blanche to define what is or is not pious.
I'm in favor of simple descriptive language. Murder is (should mean) when you kill something sentient against it's will.

 

[RestrictedAccess]

I'm in favor of simple descriptive language. Murder is (should mean) when you kill something sentient against it's will.

Nevertheless, in reality murder is entirely dependent on the state. It can be broader in a lay-man way, but legally it's another matter.

 

[Fictionarious]

Eh. If the state wants to crack down on those who commit "illegal homicide" while ignoring or excusing it's own or others' "legal homicide" (by whatever criteria they've established for distinguishing them), it can go right ahead. But I don't let it co-opt the meaning of a word.
In reality, if the state calls a tail a leg, a dog still only has four legs.

 

[RestrictedAccess]

So does that mean that if you kill another person who's trying to harm you or someone else, then you are guilty of murder?

 

[Fictionarious]

Yes.
That doesn't address whether the murder was justifiable or not, but it would be accurate and not misleading to say you murdered him.

 

[theatheistguy]

Bullshit, Zylstra!

lol ya know, would be nice if you had the decency to say this to me rather than cowering off to a different forum, in the politics section (I'm nearly never in here) and laughing about it there. You've removed it completely from it's context (oh dear Darwin I'm turning into a theist).

To have included the word 'unlawful' would have just kicked up a fuss in a Christian forum about how these are man-made laws and therefore are ultimately meaningless. And to have used the word homicide in reference to abortion would have made little sense.

Next time, if you have a problem with what I've said, grow a pair and tell me rather than bitching about it on a different website.

 

[Jotto999]

 

[borrofburi]

Re: Bullshit, Zylstra!

in the politics section (I'm nearly never in here)

I just hit the "view new posts" button, I am omnipresent.

 

[Giliell]

I'm currently not really sure what the debate is about.
Because according to my dictionary, homicide can mean murder as well as manslaughter.

And yes, countries define murder differently.
German definition is a lot different to the American definition.
Here, in order to be accused of murder you don't only have to kill someone, you also have to:
-plan it
-do it vicously so the other one hasn't got a chance
-do it for low motives (money, lust, vengance, revenge...)

And yes, abortion can be legally murder. I disagree with it, but it doesn't make it less so legally.

 

[Zylstra]

Re: Bullshit, Zylstra!

There are 195 (or so) "states" in the world. Giving each of them carte blanche to define what is or is not murder is as problematic as giving each Greek deity carte blanche to define what is or is not pious.
I'm in favor of simple descriptive language. Murder is (should mean) when you kill something sentient against it's will.

So killing in self defense should be murder? You deny the right to self defense if attacked? :facepalm:

Yes.
That doesn't address whether the murder was justifiable or not, but it would be accurate and not misleading to say you murdered him.

Murder and homicide exist because murder implies specifically that the act was/is deemed unjustifiable (along with manslaughter). Words exist for a reason

lol ya know, would be nice if you had the decency to say this to me rather than cowering off to a different forum

YOu're not very observant, are you?

To have included the word 'unlawful' would have just kicked up a fuss in a Christian forum about how these are man-made laws and therefore are ultimately meaningless. And to have used the word homicide in reference to abortion would have made little sense.

It would have made perfect sense and been correct and accurate. Homicide simply means the ending of a human life by another human. The fact of the matter is that you chose 'murder' to play a word game and appeal the the current law regarding abortion as instead of addressing the mater being discussed

Next time, try not being a liar. And if you have a problem with being called out, then let there be anything for you to be called out on.


Don't question my balls, bitch. It's right here. If you're too stupid to notice that I can't post on the other forum, then clearly I'm wasting my time expecting you to thinm any more than the loons at War Rant Ed(u).

 

[theatheistguy]

Re: Bullshit, Zylstra!

YOu're not very observant, are you?

This has nothing to do with my power of observation (which are obviously good as I'm here) you could have made to comment on the WF forum but instead you make it here.

It would have made perfect sense and been correct and accurate. Homicide simply means the ending of a human life by another human. The fact of the matter is that you chose 'murder' to play a word game and appeal the the current law regarding abortion as instead of addressing the mater being discussed

Next time, try not being a liar. And if you have a problem with being called out, then let there be anything for you to be called out on.

You didn't actually address my points as to why it would have been inappropriate to use in that context, instead you're just asserting that it is. Justify yourself.

So called 'pro-life' activists use the phrase "abortion is murder" and so I responded to that rather than having to claim it as homicide. This is not lying, I'm simply using their choice of words. And I have absolutely no problem with being "called out" that's why I'm at a Christian forum debating, and if you'd brought this up there I wouldn't have had a problem, but the fact that you came here to instead without notifying me, I find that cowardly.

Don't question my balls, bitch. It's right here. If you're too stupid to notice that I can't post on the other forum, then clearly I'm wasting my time expecting you to thinm any more than the loons at War Rant Ed(u).

I'll question what I will, even if it results in your childish name calling. As stated above, I have clearly noticed this post so my intelligence and powers of observation are not in question here, what is, are both your intentions and your integrity, making you more like those at WF than myself.

 

[Th1sWasATriumph]

Re: Bullshit, Zylstra!

Don't question my balls, bitch. It's right here. If you're too stupid to notice that I can't post on the other forum, then clearly I'm wasting my time expecting you to thinm any more than the loons at War Rant Ed(u).

Warned. I'm not concerned with who's in the right, you can do better than name-calling in a disagreement.

 

[Fictionarious]

Re: Bullshit, Zylstra!

So killing in self defense should be murder? You deny the right to self defense if attacked? :facepalm:

Yes to the first question, no to the second. I know you read my my previous posts, I answered these there.

Murder and homicide exist because murder implies specifically that the act was/is deemed unjustifiable (along with manslaughter). Words exist for a reason

Yes, they do.
Murder implies that the act was/is deemed unjustifiable, but the question is - deemed by whom?
You defer to the sovereign State's deeming, I defer to the killed victim's deeming.
My qualifying variable is preferable because yours is arbitrary at best, and indicative of a "might makes right" morality at worst.
My qualifying variable considers the perspective of any potentially killable person, yours considers the perspective of only a fraction of humanity.

 

[Zylstra]

Re: Bullshit, Zylstra!

[ you could have made to comment on the WF forum but instead you make it here.

You don't seem to grasp what I have said. Go look under my name at War Rant Ed

So called 'pro-life' activists use the phrase "abortion is murder" and so I responded to that rather than having to claim it as homicide. This is not lying, I'm simply using their choice of words

No, you did not. You stated that the legal definitions of the words you used were other than what they were. You then based your argument on those misrepresentations. This is dishonest. and not the first post you made at WF that I had to call you out on for being disingenuous.

. And I have absolutely no problem with being "called out" that's why I'm at a Christian forum debating, and if you'd brought this up there I wouldn't have had a problem, but the fact that you came here to instead without notifying me, I find that cowardly.

You still can't grasp the concept that I can't post at WF? How slow are you?

 

[Zylstra]

Re: Bullshit, Zylstra!

Yes to the first question, no to the second. I know you read my my previous posts, I answered these there.

So, a man breaks into your house, shoots your children, shoots you, and is raping your wife.

Shooting him should get you sent to prison for murder?

A police officer shoots a terrorist who's rushing to push the button on a bomb that'll kill everyone in the airport or shoots someone who's walking down the street shooting people randomly? The officer should be charged with murder? If I rush you with a knife and you hit me with a hammer to save yourself and I die, you should be convicted of murder?


That's the most asinine thing I've heard in a long time, and it directly contradicts your second claim.

Murder implies that the act was/is deemed unjustifiable, but the question is - deemed by whom?

The parties involved in the social contract in order to protect themselves from murderous thieves and serial rapists

You defer to the sovereign State's deeming, I defer to the killed victim's deeming.

A rapist shot trying to rape is not a victim. A man who goes on a shooting spree is not a 'victim' when someone ends his rampage with a well-placed bullet

My qualifying variable is preferable because yours is arbitrary at best, and indicative of a "might makes right" morality at worst.

Wrong, genius. Mine is a matter of 'due no harm, but if one seeks to harm you, kill him first; if one seeks to rape, rob, and kill your neighbor, aid your neighbor and know that your neighbor would aid you as well. ' That's the way any society survives, by rallying together for mutual defense and the common good.

One loses any 'right' or claim to that protection when one takes hostile action against any other member of the group without cause and any outsider who acts against any member of the group will meet the common defense of the whole. That's the way the world works. Always has and always will for the rest of foreseeable history.


You seek to punish a girl because she would rather dirty her blade than have her body ravaged. You advocate punishing a man for defending his life and the lives of his children.