Buddhism

[Zeronix]

The philosophy of buddhism states that 'life is suffering' and that 'the only way to end this suffering is to remove all desires'

When I hear this, the first thing that comes to mind is "wouldn't the desire to remove all desire be counter productive in removing all desires?"

And also, if life is suffering, wouldn't buddhists just kill themselves?
Even the act of living is a desire to survive.
And the act of suicide is a desire of death.

So personally, I believe that it is impossible to remove ALL desire.

What do you think?

 

[ImprobableJoe]

I think it is a load of sour owl poop. Specifically, it is the same sort of nonsense as Christianity promotes when it comes to poor folks: you are supposed to be miserable, and wanting to improve your life is vanity and impurity. If you are unhappy, it is your fault.

 

[Pulsar]

Difference between Christianity and Zen Buddhism:

Christianity ignores its own contradictions.

Zen Buddhism is founded on them.

 

[ImprobableJoe]

Difference between Christianity and Zen Buddhism:

Christianity ignores its own contradictions.

Zen Buddhism is founded on them.

So they are open about their horseshit? Does that make it better?

Sorry, I don't see a difference where it counts.

 

[Otokogoroshi]

I think a lot of Westerners are drawn to Buddhism partly due to its mystique and add onto that the appearance of peace with a good dose of "It's not Christianity!"

While some of the ideals of different Buddhist sects appeal to me I can not get over a few core issues.

First and foremost like most religions or philosophies it promotes the idea of working towards the afterlife. At least Buddhism is more forgiving and accepting of your flaws. If you fail to reach Nirvana clearly it just wasn't your time so keep working at it... a sharp contrast to Christianity and "You're fucked!"

Another thing is the vast majority of the Buddhist paths promote, support and purpose the surrender of desires. I dislike any religion that suggests our natural desires should be ignored or 'overcome'. As thinking intelligent creatures we are able to decide when to not do something unlike more primitive animals that don't have real impulse control.

Sex isn't evil.

Enjoying food isn't evil.

Relaxing and vegging out isn't evil.

Getting angry isn't evil.

Being jealous or covetous isn't evil.

However these things become dangerous when taken too far. Some, like getting angry, can move into the bad area pretty quickly but the ability to get angry is good! There are some things that should upset you! Anger can move you to act!


So in summation I can't really support any way of thinking that tells me ENJOYING MY FUCKING LIFE is evil. Life can be rough enough without slopping on guilt.

 

[ImprobableJoe]

I think a lot of Westerners are drawn to Buddhism partly due to its mystique and add onto that the appearance of peace with a good dose of "It's not Christianity!"

While some of the ideals of different Buddhist sects appeal to me I can not get over a few core issues.

Yeah, and Westerners especially tend to ignore those "core issues," choosing instead to believe in an idealized and nonexistent version of Buddhism.

 

[Pulsar]

So they are open about their horseshit? Does that make it better?

Sorry, I don't see a difference where it counts.

Next time I'm joking, I'll add five smilies, just for you.

 

[ImprobableJoe]

Next time I'm joking, I'll add five smilies, just for you.

I was about to ask if that was a parody of the sort of nonsense the Dali Lama likes to spew.... Sorry, I just burned my hand pretty badly while cooking. Carry on. :!:

 

[Zerosix]

[/quote]Yeah, and Westerners especially tend to ignore those "core issues," choosing instead to believe in an idealized and nonexistent version of Buddhism.[/quote]

While I don't agree with the whole reincarnation aspects and giving up all desires. I like how Buddhism can teach you to not be obsessed with material things. I have no problem with people following an idealised Buddhism if they adopt such policies.

 

[ImprobableJoe]

While I don't agree with the whole reincarnation aspects and giving up all desires. I like how Buddhism can teach you to not be obsessed with material things. I have no problem with people following an idealised Buddhism if they adopt such policies.

Here's my question: why can't you just not be obsessed with material things, without all the mystical bullshit?

 

[Zerosix]

Here's my question: why can't you just not be obsessed with material things, without all the mystical bullshit?

Because not everyone is strong minded. They need something to tell them not to do something. Having something mystical to look up must help them in some way.

 

[digitalbuddha48]

This is from a paper I wrote about the three core ideas to understand "original" Buddhism (Theravada Buddhism).

Three Buddhist Concepts:
-Impermanence (anicca)
-Desire (tanha)
-Suffering (dukkha)

During his time of enlightenment, the Buddha realized that to live, as a human is to suffer. In our lifetime we inevitably have to go through physical suffering like pain, sickness, injury, tiredness, old age, and eventually death; and we have to bear mental suffering like sadness, fear, frustration, disappointment, and depression. Although there are many different levels of suffering and there are also good experiences in life that we distinguish as the opposite of suffering, like comfort and happiness, life altogether is imperfect and incomplete, because our world is susceptible to the second concept: impermanence. This means we are never able to keep permanently what we work for, and just as happy moments pass by, we ourselves and our loved ones will pass away one day, too.

Impermanence was the key teaching of the Buddha partly because it was the easiest way to grasp the first Noble Truth in that life is suffering. Impermanence is a way to show that because everything is changing and in a rate of constant change, we will never be able to have something forever and because of that wanting or desire for something we will suffer. Because we have an insatiable craving in us there is nothing we can do to end this suffering until we are able to rid ourselves of that craving. An easy way to show how impermanence can lead to desire and suffering is by pretending that you are a very insecure person with a boyfriend/girlfriend. It is clear that you love this person but because of your insecurity and want for that person you are driven to do things to keep them close to you like not letting them see or hang out with friends or other acts of desperation. In your attempt to keep them closer to you, you will eventually lose them because you cling and desire them too much.

The Buddha realized this and how desire leads to suffering and thus set down a way for people to break this cycle of wanting and suffering called the Eightfold path. During his teachings the Buddha wanted to make it clear that suffering can be ended and that there is a path to end suffering - a gradual path of self-improvement. It is also called the middle way between the two extremes of excessive self-indulgence (hedonism) and excessive self-mortification (asceticism); it leads to the end of the cycle of rebirth. The goal to the end of suffering can take countless lifetimes, where every rebirth the karma created in the past life is applied to the present life. Craving, ignorance, misunderstanding, and its effects will disappear gradually, as an individual progresses on the path.

The basic connection to the three main concepts discussed earlier is that impermanence is the reason for suffering, and suffering is caused by desire or want. If we can rid ourselves of these things we can reach a state called Nirvana. Nirvana means freedom from all worries, troubles, complexes, fabrications and ideas. Nirvana is not comprehensible for those who have not attained it.

The Buddha, according to earlier records, also discovered the law of dependent origination (paticca-samuppada):
""¦whereby one condition arises out of another, which in turn arises out of prior conditions. Every mode of being presupposes another immediately preceding mode from which the subsequent mode derives, in a chain of causes. According to the classical rendering, the 12 links in the chain are: ignorance (avijja), karmic predispositions (sankharas), consciousness (vinnana), form and body (nama-rupa), the five sense organs and the mind (salayatana), contact (phassa), feeling-response (vedana), craving (tanha), grasping for an object (upadana), action toward life (bhava), birth (jati), and old age and death (jaramarana). According to this law, the misery that is bound with sensate existence is accounted for by a methodical chain of causation (Tucci)."

This law that the Buddha discovered is another great way to see how impermanence desire, and suffering are linked. Cause and effect is present in our every day life as well as the three terms. For example, when we get up every morning we don't want to get out of bed because it is cold and uncomfortable so we hit the snooze button and doze back off to some state of sleep for the next 5-15 minutes. The problem with this is that we know we will have to wake up eventually so we torture our self with that thought until we get up and deal with it.


Sorry if it's a little wordy but I felt that this could clear up any misconceptions of Buddhism's ORIGINAL goal. I stress original because it is true that there are many forms of Buddhism (trust me I wrote a paper on that too) but I find Theravada Buddhism (which is the closest to what the traditional Buddha taught) to be an excellent code of ethics and a rather peaceful way to live.

*Sidenote* I apologize if the examples are weak, I didn't feel like coming up with new ones.

 

[Spase]

Hm.

For some reason I thought you were supposed to drop you attachment to things rather than your desire for them.. maybe because that makes a lot more sense to me.

I was about to start reading into Buddhism things that actually make sense to me but realized that's giving it too much credit. The one positive thing I can say about Buddhism is you don't have a lot of the violence born from fanaticism that plagues so many other religions.

I'm basing my statement mostly on my dad's word.. because he ended up married to a crazy Buddhist.. and as a strong atheist he thinks it's stupid but thinks it's mostly benign. Since he's read a lot about it all since marrying her I'm assuming he did his research before claiming that... but if anyone knows otherwise please say so.

And to be clear.. I'm not calling it a good thing because it's not actively responsible for violence. I think it's completely stupid.

 

[digitalbuddha48]

Hm.

For some reason I thought you were supposed to drop you attachment to things rather than your desire for them

Definition for desire from dictionary.com.

-verb (used with object)
1. to wish or long for; crave; want.
2. to express a wish to obtain; ask for; request: The mayor desires your presence at the next meeting.
-noun
3. a longing or craving, as for something that brings satisfaction or enjoyment: a desire for fame.
4. an expressed wish; request.
5. something desired.
6. sexual appetite or a sexual urge.

Dictionary.com => Thesaurus entry for attachment.

Main Entry: attachment
Part of Speech: noun
Definition: affection, high regard
Synonyms: affinity, amore, attraction, bond, case, crush, devotion, fidelity, fondness, friendship, hankering*, liking, love, loyalty, partiality, possessiveness, regard, shine*, tenderness, weakness, yen*

They seem similar to me...maybe I'm just going crazy.

 

[infrared]

so, suffering is unavoidable?

 

[AntiSkill42]

not entirely. since suffering more or less originates in our desires, you have to let go of desiring anything.
and welcome everything.

little masochistic. but the human brain is powerful...

 

[Zylstra]

When I hear this, the first thing that comes to mind is "wouldn't the desire to remove all desire be counter productive in removing all desires?"/quote]


I never thought of that, but yeah... you have a point...

 

[lightbulbsun88]

Buddhism is a pretty gloomy religion when you actually examine it. I strongly disagree about removing all desires, because desires lead to action and innovation, which leads to improvement. I don't even agree about removing all attachment. Buddhism's main idea is to clean "house" and everything will be wonderful, and I have yet to see any evidence suggesting this is the actual case.

 

[digitalbuddha48]

The whole point to Buddhism is to clear your karma. They believe that when someone is enlightened they become an arhant (may have spelled this wrong). An arhant is someone who is enlightened, but haven't cleared out their karma. When they have successfully removed all their karma (good and bad) they die and reach a state known as Parinirvana (I swear I'm not making this up).

 

[lightbulbsun88]

The whole point to Buddhism is to clear your karma. They believe that when someone is enlightened they become an arhant (may have spelled this wrong). An arhant is someone who is enlightened, but haven't cleared out their karma. When they have successfully removed all their karma (good and bad) they die and reach a state known as Parinirvana (I swear I'm not making this up).

I know you're not. I was a Buddhist at one point in my life, and have a general grasp of the main concepts. I think a lot of what they say is meaningless crap and anti-life. In fact, I would go out on a limb as to say that Buddhism is more anti-life than Christianity.