Belief.

[Lallapalalable]

For something to be knowable, let alone known, it has to b a fact.

The only way, then, to know anything would be to know everything. Since this is obviously not the case, we form a structure of the "known" based on what has yet to be contradicted in any way. For instance, 600 years ago we absolutely knew that the earth was the center of the universe. It obviously wasnt a fact, but everybody knew it because there were no observed contradictions stating otherwise.

 

[Worldquest]

For something to be knowable, let alone known, it has to b a fact.

The only way, then, to know anything would be to know everything. Since this is obviously not the case, we form a structure of the "known" based on what has yet to be contradicted in any way. For instance, 600 years ago we absolutely knew that the earth was the center of the universe. It obviously wasnt a fact, but everybody knew it because there were no observed contradictions stating otherwise.

We form a structure of the known. Yes, a belief system. You create criteria by which you decide what you will consider fact and what you won't. This stems from a desire to know where you stand regarding what is fact and what isn't, rather than what is actually fact and what isn't, and as such it is entirely subjective. However, in creating that criteria, you're creating a belief system.

 

[Anachronous Rex]

Anachronous rex -

Language is subjective, meanings vary from person to person. We do the best we can with the words that we have available. Of course, yes. So when you say that knowledge is demonstrable, and given that that is your owb definition, then what do really mean? I'd say that what you really mean is that to you, it makes more sense for knowledge to be demonstrable, and that you can't conceive, due to a belief system, how something can be knowable, and indeed known, and not be demonstrable. I think that stems from a desire to see and therefore confirm that something is known, and therefore true. I understand the inclination to want that, but there's no real reason to actually think that only the demonstrable is knowable.

Despite this latest misrepresentation I believe I have made my point clearly and adequately defended it, and as I percive no gain in repeating myself I suggest, at this point, that we simply allow Worldquest to sink into his own bog of arch-relativism.

If he wishes to live in a world in which all viewpoints are equally valid, let him.

 

[Worldquest]

All viewpoints are equally belief systems, that's for sure.

 

[)O( Hytegia )O(]

Clever man -

If something can be known, that's because it's true. For something to be knowable, let alone known, it has to b a fact. I would have thought you'd understand that at least. Otherwise it's not known (as you say), it is merely imagined. Just to use an example, the fact that god exists is something that I can't really demonstrate, rather it's something that you either know also, or you don't. Or to put it another way, you either get it, or you don't.

Translation:
"I'm right. You're wrong."

Demonstrate God please - bring me concrete evidence of God.

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[Worldquest]

Clever man -

If something can be known, that's because it's true. For something to be knowable, let alone known, it has to b a fact. I would have thought you'd understand that at least. Otherwise it's not known (as you say), it is merely imagined. Just to use an example, the fact that god exists is something that I can't really demonstrate, rather it's something that you either know also, or you don't. Or to put it another way, you either get it, or you don't.

Translation:
"I'm right. You're wrong."

Demonstrate God please - bring me concrete evidence of God.

-----------------------------------------------

Your belief system ensures that any evidence for god couldn't possibly exist. But that's just your belief system.

 

[Andiferous]

Your belief system ensures that any evidence for god couldn't possibly exist. But that's just your belief system.

It may be so, but by having knowledge of god that is not proveable or disproveable in any way, you are proporting the truth of your own belief outside of a skeptical foundation. So your own belief system is properly defined as faith.

 

[Worldquest]

Your belief system ensures that any evidence for god couldn't possibly exist. But that's just your belief system.

It may be so, but by having knowledge of god that is not proveable or disproveable in any way, you are proporting the truth of your own belief outside of a skeptical foundation. So your own belief system is properly defined as faith.

Well is it so, or not? I say it is definitely a belief system.

 

[)O( Hytegia )O(]

Well is it so, or not? I say it is definitely a belief system.

Your belief system is built upon a lack of empirical evidence towards itself;
therefore, it is based upon faith. Not fact.


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MY belief system is not atheistic. I'm a Wiccan. Please kindly get your facts straight.
MY imaginary friends have given all the evidence to myself for their own existence - but I acknowledge this fact. You, however, claim divine and provable entities.
Bring forth evidence.

 

[Andiferous]

Well is it so, or not? I say it is definitely a belief system.

That would depend on your definition of "a belief system."

It could be. Where a belief system (as said in other thread) aims to provide a rigid kind of template, it may or may not be. Where the goal of the belief system is truth, it may or may not be. But if the belief system is flexible and is shaped by skepticism, the only belief "system" I percieve is skepticism; and I don't think skepticism warrants a "system" in and of itself.

But that's just my opinion.

 

[Commander Eagle]

I say it is definitely a belief system.

It isn't.

Don't get me wrong. I'm not saying that atheists don't have a belief system. We do. But atheism itself is not that belief system. Atheism is a single thing: the lack of belief in a god. We have other beliefs, too, but they (usually) are independent of atheism.

 

[)O( Hytegia )O(]

Atheism is a belief system like being bald is a hair color.

 

[Worldquest]

The clue is in the word. It cracks me up when atheists draw my attention to the A in Atheism, while completely ignoring the ISM in Atheism. According to wiki and the dictionary (not to mention common knowledge) :


a principle, belief or movement

suffix, meaning adherence or following an ideology

A distinctive doctrine, system, or theory


Atheists believe in nogod. They adhere to and follow the ideology of nogod. It is their doctrine, their theory.

Belief...ideology...doctrine...theory, doesn't sond very empirical, does it?

 

[Commander Eagle]

The clue is in the word. It cracks me up when atheists draw my attention to the A in Atheism, while completely ignoring the ISM in Atheism. According to wiki and the dictionary (not to mention common knowledge) :


a principle, belief or movement

Note how all of these are singular. For something to be a belief system, it kind of has to be PLURAL.

Belief...ideology...doctrine...theory, doesn't sond very empirical, does it?

The last one does, actually. But the problem here is that just because something is a belief, a doctrine, or an ideology, that does not mean that it cannot be founded in reason and logic.

 

[Worldquest]

The clue is in the word. It cracks me up when atheists draw my attention to the A in Atheism, while completely ignoring the ISM in Atheism. According to wiki and the dictionary (not to mention common knowledge) :


a principle, belief or movement

Note how all of these are singular. For something to be a belief system, it kind of has to be PLURAL.

Belief...ideology...doctrine...theory, doesn't sond very empirical, does it?

The last one does, actually. But the problem here is that just because something is a belief, a doctrine, or an ideology, that does not mean that it cannot be founded in reason and logic.

That's fine. But you can see hoe atheism is those things.

 

[Aught3]

Atheism isn't even a proper -ism. Theism is though.

 

[Commander Eagle]

That's fine. But you can see hoe atheism is those things.

"Theory" and "belief", yes - but, as I have said, that it is a theory or a belief does not mean that it cannot be grounded in logic or have a basis in reason. The other two, not so much, for a reason which I have covered in various other posts: it is a single belief, and doctrines/ideologies generally consist of more than one.

 

[ImprobableJoe]

Atheism isn't even a proper -ism. Theism is though.

Yeah, the "a-" prefix sort of gives it away. It is fair(though incomplete) to say that whatever Theism is, Atheism is not. Theism is a belief system relating to religious stuff. Atheism is just saying "I don't have a religious belief system" and how you get to calling that a belief system is completely beyond my ability to understand.

 

[Ozymandyus]

You see: the' A-' is a negation of the ism. It is not an ism because it is contained right there in the word a- theism - not theism.

That WQ wants to focus on the ism instead of the a just shows that you have no understanding on how words are constructed, its not some special insight... If I say I am not a fireman, it does not mean I must be a policeman, or have a job at all. It means I'm not a fireman. When you say you are not a theist, you are only saying that you are not a theist: you can still believe all kinds of other stuff... and those are their own isms.

 

[Worldquest]

That's fine. But you can see hoe atheism is those things.

"Theory" and "belief", yes - but, as I have said, that it is a theory or a belief does not mean that it cannot be grounded in logic or have a basis in reason. The other two, not so much, for a reason which I have covered in various other posts: it is a single belief, and doctrines/ideologies generally consist of more than one.

So you agree that atheism is a belief, but not a belief system. That's fine.