Atheism and what is means to you!

[Xulld]

Words are flexible things. Science tries to create independent definitions for words so that they can be used objectively, but this is not typical of how society uses words.

Socially we can use a word in the same sentence and mean slightly different things with the same word. Normally modifiers in expression can help us tell the difference, or we negotiate the meaning of the word by its use in the phrase.

I tend to see this as the main problem with the label Atheist. The word has been batted around a bit by theist and non theist alike over the ages. I think agnostic is really just a way out of the conversation and not a meaningful distinction in regards to a belief in god, only in belief of the knowledge attainable about god.

I have considered myself an atheist for just over a year now based on a certain definition of the word.

I realize that some people have tried to create a distinction between a positive belief that no god can exist, they call this strong atheism, and the lack of a belief which is called weak atheism.

I have never quite understood why its important to make this distinction, or perhaps how one could rationally come to the conclusion that there could be nothing that could be called god.

God after all is a term that has NEVER to my knowledge been given a positive ontology and thus remains ethereal as a thing in which we can seat rational belief in one way or the other.

I guess for the purposes of my own self, I lack a belief based on the lack of rational criteria with which to define a being we could label god, which would be required then to make an assessment of the likely hood of existence.

An Example of a positive ontology that kind of misses the mark for what most people would agree is god, is the idea that god is nature, in this you can develop a positive ontology in that you can provide positive characteristics to define nature and thus define god.

I see no rational way to hold a belief in something in which a positive ontology cannot be constructed. Most theists rely on negative characteristics, ie what god is not or vague parallels.

However this also means I do not think the positive assertion that there could be no being called god is rational.

What do you guys think?

 

[irmerk]

As you said, atheism, as well as evolution, have had a connotative connection with other ideas such as the big bang, abortion, etc. etc.

I think theism is the belief in a god, most likely a particular one.

I think atheism is the lack of a belief in a god.

I think agnostic is the belief in a god and or higher power, with either being unsure to which in particular or no currently distinct one.

I think nihilism is the belief in no god.

Many people confuse and misconstrue atheism with nihilism. They think atheism is the belief in the lack of a god or gods, and state it is as ridiculous as claiming there is a god. This, to me, is wrong, since nihilism is what they are thinking of.

 

[Xulld]

I have always taken nihilism to be an assessment of the origins of values, or morals, not god. I can certainly understand how theist who equate morals, and values as intrinsically coming from god as misunderstanding this.

 

[irmerk]

Meh, maybe you are right. I just thought nihilism was the belief in the nonexistence of something, such as a god.

Mainly, I wanted to make sure I mentioned that atheism is not the belief in no god or the lack of a god.

 

[Ozymandyus]

Meh, there is more than just strong and weak atheism then. I consider myself somewhat of a strong atheist in that I wholeheartedly believe that the case for God has been disproven...

Here was a great comparison I heard somewhere - We believe in the justice system that someone is innocent until proven guilty, and that must be proven beyond a reasonable doubt. Say the verdict comes back innocent. Among the jurors, some will just believe the prosecutor did not prove his case, that there is reasonable doubt(weak atheism) and some will actually believe wholeheartedly that the man is innocent (strong atheism). I guess you could think of an insanely strong atheist who knows without any doubt at all that the man is innocent, but then he would be an eyewitness and not a juror.

I guess some people use agnostic to refer to the reasonable doubt group, but in general they are siding with the atheists(innocence believers).

Anyway, I agree that people that claim to know for certain that there is no God are overstating their case. But saying that 'I know there is no God' as is sometimes said by atheists is just a common usage that doesn't necessarily claim to know without a shadow of a doubt (people that believe in God say I Know there is a God, even if they have doubts as well).

 

[Xulld]

Well I tend to agree that I would prefer atheism be solely defined as a lack of belief in a god but once I started looking around at accepted defintions (which really just means the standard shotgun definitions that society uses) it ends up being more then that depending on how its defined.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nihilism

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Atheism

I know I know, wiki. But its a good place to start, and please feel free to correct it if its wrong.

I just find, much like thunderf00t, that the word has been hijacked and maybe we need to disassociate, in society words are defined by the majority, or with a shotgun effect where the dictionary gives EVERY possible definition and thus allows and perpetuates this need to add more and more specificity to the term.

Ex.

I am an agnostic weak implicit atheist lol.

-------------
Edit. Ozymandyus didnt see your post before I replied, very good insight and good use of a parallel example with the justice system. I agree.

 

[irmerk]

I really do not think a word can have degrees of meaning. It means one thing. Otherwise, a weak atheist and a weak theist would just about think the same thing: There is likely a god. Atheism is the lack in a belief of a deity, while theism is the belief in one. Believing a deity is not atheism; again, atheism is the lack of a belief. I may have been wrong, like I said, but I thought nihilism was the word to describe the belief in no or the lack of a god. The belief a god does not exist is not the same thing as the lack of a belief one exists. Any fantasy has been 'disproved' to the point of having no reason to believe in them; this does not mean they are disproved.

In your analogy, the weak atheism is actually agnosticism and strong atheism is actually theism, because, again, atheism is the lack of a belief. A word's meaning does not have degrees. It may provide different results in different circumstances, but it still means the same thing.

Anyway, I agree that people that claim to know for certain that there is no God are overstating their case. But saying that 'I know there is no God' as is sometimes said by atheists is just a common usage that doesn't necessarily claim to know without a shadow of a doubt (people that believe in God say I Know there is a God, even if they have doubts as well).

Saying, "There is no God" is a overstatement to try and exemplify the strange concept the religious believe in: Their god is real and no other god is with no more validity to on or the other. This is the same as saying, "There are no Leprechauns." Sure, there might be, but to be consistent in common thought processes everyone goes through, the conclusion is there are none.

Edit: Atheism, in the broadest sense, is the absence of belief in the existence of deities.

So, until a better word is found, nihilism fits the description of believing a god does not exist the best, at least for me.

 

[Xulld]

I really do not think a word can have degrees of meaning. It means one thing. Otherwise, a weak atheist and a weak theist would just about think the same thing: There is likely a god. Atheism is the lack in a belief of a deity, while theism is the belief in one. Believing a deity is not atheism; again, atheism is the lack of a belief. I may have been wrong, like I said, but I thought nihilism was the word to describe the belief in no or the lack of a god. The belief a god does not exist is not the same thing as the lack of a belief one exists. Any fantasy has been 'disproved' to the point of having no reason to believe in them; this does not mean they are disproved.

In your analogy, the weak atheism is actually agnosticism and strong atheism is actually theism, because, again, atheism is the lack of a belief. A word's meaning does not have degrees. It may provide different results in different circumstances, but it still means the same thing.

Anyway, I agree that people that claim to know for certain that there is no God are overstating their case. But saying that 'I know there is no God' as is sometimes said by atheists is just a common usage that doesn't necessarily claim to know without a shadow of a doubt (people that believe in God say I Know there is a God, even if they have doubts as well).

Saying, "There is no God" is a overstatement to try and exemplify the strange concept the religious believe in: Their god is real and no other god is with no more validity to on or the other. This is the same as saying, "There are no Leprechauns." Sure, there might be, but to be consistent in common thought processes everyone goes through, the conclusion is there are none.

Edit: Atheism, in the broadest sense, is the absence of belief in the existence of deities.

So, until a better word is found, nihilism fits the description of believing a god does not exist the best, at least for me.

So on one hand you admit that nihilism means something different for you, but then are rigid in that atheism can mean only one thing?

Believe me you are preaching to the choir.

 

[irmerk]

So on one hand you admit that nihilism means something different for you, but then are rigid in that atheism can mean only one thing?

Believe me you are preaching to the choir.

I am saying nihilism is the best fitting term - I am sure there is one that fits, yet I do not know of it. I am just trying to make sure atheism is not equated with the belief in the lack of a god.

 

[GoodKat]

Atheism: Lack of belief in any God(s)
Deism: Belief in God(s) only in a metaphysical sense
Pantheism: Calling nature or reality God
Agnosticism: The belief that the existence of any God(s) is unknowable

Thus I am an agnostic atheist. There is no such thing as someone who is just agnostic, although a great deal of self-proclaimed agnostics fail to realize this.

Like thunderf00t, I think prefer the positive label of freethinker or PEARList to the negative label of atheist, hence nonstampcollector's name.

 

[irmerk]

Thus I am an agnostic atheist. There is no such thing as someone who is just agnostic, although a great deal of self-proclaimed agnostics fail to realize this.

Alright, I can agree with that.

 

[Aught3]

Atheism: Lack of belief in any God(s)
Deism: Belief in God(s) only in a metaphysical sense
Pantheism: Calling nature or reality God
Agnosticism: The belief that the existence of any God(s) is unknowable

These are the definitions I usually go with. Do you have one for theism? Belief in gods?

I don't know that I would call myself agnostic, there might be some god who could make itself known if it wanted to. I just say I'm an atheist and use the definition you've given.

Is it possible to be an agnostic theist? That's often a category people bring up, though I've never met anyone who claims the label. It seems inherently contradictory to me.

 

[GoodKat]

Is it possible to be an agnostic theist? That's often a category people bring up, though I've never met anyone who claims the label. It seems inherently contradictory to me.

I've got a friend who is one, he admits that his reasons for believing are illogical.

 

[Aught3]

Illogical reasons for belief? Don't these people just fuck your brain over with this nonsense?

 

[GoodKat]

Illogical reasons for belief? Don't these people just fuck your brain over with this nonsense?

He's a really nice guy, and he fully admits that I'm probably right, he just doesn't impose on himself the rigors that I do. I'm well on my way to changing his mind though, I have already disfigured his concept of God until it's almost unrecognizable, now I just need to either convince him of the importance of objectivity and the arrogance of faith, or show him how beautiful the world can be without God.

 

[Xulld]

My main issue with credulous belief is how it shapes our decisions. Its easy when we allow unsubstantiated truths into our paradigm to start down a path of speculative living. I mean once you know how to validate information you start to question a lot more (at least in my experience).

I think the balance point must always remain some place where you can easily admit that you just don't know. I mean we all have limited time, and some of us are quite lazy <<< points to self <<<<

With what we spend time studying and verifying, when we become experts or at least knowledgeable laymen we tend to add a higher probability to our assertions, but faith is 100% from word go.

I think disdain of the ultimate laziness is our only real commonality in the so called "atheist" community.

How we then feel about it as an approachable idea is all together different from individual to individual.

 

[Weirdtopia]

So ya you got
Atheism- Belief of no-gods or supernatural
Monotheism- Belief in one god
Dualism- Belief in Two god
Polytheism- Belief in more than one god
Deism- Belief of god through reason and observation of the natural world
Pantheism- Belief god is everything
Henotheism- Belief to worship one god but be open for possibilities for other gods
Monolatrism- Belief of many gods but worship only one
Mysticism- Belief in spirituality
Polydeism- Belief that more than one god created the universe
Spiritualism- The possibility of a god but do believe in spirits.
Agnosticism- Does not know for sure

Then there is many more when you categorize spirituality in general.

 

[ImprobableJoe]

My atheism means to me that most other people have a giant irrational blind spot, and that scares the shit out of me. :shock:

Since I've always been an atheist, as far back as I can remember, it is hard for me to not see it as anything more or less than the default position for rational people. I don't believe in make-believe things, things with no evidence, and certainly I don't believe in things that don't even have a coherent definition. Atheism seems to go right along with not believing is Santa or the Easter Bunny.

 

[DmKrispin]

Atheism? Well, to me it means simply a distinct lack of god beliefs. Atheism says nothing about the supernatural, aliens, new age, conspiracy theories, or any other "woo" topic.

Atheism = lack of belief in gods
Agnosticism = statement regarding knowledge

 

[ImprobableJoe]

An Example of a positive ontology that kind of misses the mark for what most people would agree is god, is the idea that god is nature, in this you can develop a positive ontology in that you can provide positive characteristics to define nature and thus define god.

That one always drives me nuts. "God is nature"?!?! Really????

We already have a word for nature... NATURE! Sticking "god" in there is really just saying that theists don't have Clue #1 about what they mean by "god."