Astrology Science

[Petterjhon]

Its not always cut and dried. I know most people at face value just take what they are told by Astrologers and out of textbooks and what they read online and accept it for face, but Astrology is a very complex science, but I am going to help you out by clarifying what I can for you. You may not have any experience, but I am quite sure you will be much less mystified after reading this. I am going to sort out some of the generalisms and confusions people have with this subject here in this lens!

 

[Anachronous Rex]

Alright, let's start with this then:



EDIT - and this too, why not?

 

[Deleted member 619]

 

[Darkchilde]

I had written an article for a science competition in another forum, and I am copying this here (hack and some other people that are on the other forum as well can vouch that this is my work):

[c]DEBUNKING ASTROLOGY[/c]

Abstract:
Astrology is false.

Astrology: what it is and what does it claim?

Astrology is the belief that the position of the Sun, Moon and planets in the ecliptic during birth of a person influences via a mysterious force the character of a person, and can determine his future.
Astrology claims that there are 12 signs in the ecliptic or zodiac, and that the Sun, Moon and planets spends one month in each sign. The 12 signs and their dates, according to astrology, are as follows:

NAME SIGN DATES
ARIES 20 March - 20 April
TAURUS 20 April - 21 May
GEMINI 21 May - 21 June
CANCER 21 June - 22 July
LEO 22 July - 23 August
VIRGO 23 August - 23 September
LIBRA 23 September - 23 October
SCORPIO 23 October - 22 November
SAGITTARIUS 22 November - 22 December
CAPRICORN 22 December - 20 January
AQUARIUS 20 January - 18 February
PISCES 18 February - 20 March


The Mysterious Force that governs our lives, according to astrology.

But what is this mysterious force that emanates from the stars and planets? From the Moon and the Sun? That has so much influence in our lives? If we listen to astrologers, we are looking at a force that is not influenced by distance or mass.
There are four fundamental forces in the universe: the weak interaction, the strong interaction, electromagnetism and gravity. We can discount the strong and weak interactions as they have no bearing in massive bodies, those forces are responsible for reactions and effects within the atoms, like decay and nuclear fission. We are left with two forces, gravity and electromagnetism.

Let's take a first look at electromagnetism. Immediately, we ran into the first problem: the planets are electrically neutral! There is no electricity coming from Mars or from Jupiter. And even if there was, the effect of electricity diminishes with distance. How about magnetic fields? The Sun's magnetic field is huge, and does influence the Solar System. However, not every planet has a magnetic field of the same strength, and again, the influence of magnetic fields diminish with distance.
We have eliminated electromagnetism.

How about the last force, gravity? Again, we ran into a major problem: gravity depends on mass and distance. the more massive an object is, the more gravity but the gravitational attraction is less and less the further away we are from the object. So, Mars does not exert the same gravitational influence as Jupiter does, and of course, the Sun is the most massive object in the Solar System.

Maybe there is another mysterious force out there, that influences our lives the way astrologers claim. If that were so, then scientists, especially astronomers, would have some evidence for this force. There would be some repeatable patterns, during births, or during major events, there would be something that scientists, actual scientists, would be able to measure. Even astrologers do not know what this mysterious force is!

The Constellations of the Ecliptic: 12 or 13?

Astrology is basing themselves into dividing the ecliptic into 12 equal parts. According to them, the apparent motions of the Sun and the major planets take equal times to traverse each sign.

First of all, there are 13 constellations in the ecliptic. There is also the constellation of Ophiucus. Have you ever known anyone whose star sign is Ophiucus? Let's look at the 13 constellations of the ecliptic, or more commonly known the Zodiac, and the actual times when the Sun is seen in that constellation:

 

NAME SIGN DATES
ARIES 19 April - 14 May
TAURUS 14 May - 21 June
GEMINI 21 June - 21 July
CANCER 21 July - 11 August
LEO 11 August - 17 September
VIRGO 17 September - 31 October
LIBRA 31 October - 21 November
SCORPIO 21 November - 30 November
OPHIUCUS 30 November - 18 December
SAGITTARIUS 18 December - 21 January
CAPRICORN 21 January - 17 February
AQUARIUS 17 February - 13 March
PISCES 13 March - 20 April


Let's compare the two tables. What is the first thing that we notice? That the Sun does not move through each constellation in approximately a month as astrologers claim, but that the times the Sun needs to traverse each one, vary from 8 days to more than 40 days! And of course, there is a shift of at least one sign to where the Sun is compared with the astrological table.

This diversity is mainly due to a natural phenomenon called precession of the equinoxes. This phenomenon is due to the motion of the rotational axis of the Earth. Because of gravitational influences, the axis traces a cone every 26000 years. The astrological tables as astrologers now use them, were compiled about 2500 years ago, in Babylonia. During that time, the axis has rotated by about 36 degrees, so its orientation has changed, and as a consequence, so have the apparent motions of the Sun and the other planets in the ecliptic.

The above shows that every calculation that astrologers make is simply wrong, because they have not taken into account actual natural phenomena, like the precession of the equinoxes, nor the fact that each sign does not occupy an equal area in the ecliptic.

 
Some interesting facts about the Solar System, stars, constellations and more, that astrology fails to consider.

Let's get back to the Solar System. Astrology does include the 9 planets in their predictions... 9 planets? But the current planets of the Solar System are 8! Pluto is officially a dwarf planet like so many other Trans-Neptunian objects. There are a number of dwarf planets that have been discovered like Sedna and Eris. How about the asteroids between Jupiter and Mars? Shouldn't they exert an influence? How about some of the more massive moons of Jupiter like Europa? Or Saturn's moon Titan? How about Pluto's moon Charon? The comets? The objects in the Oort Cloud? But, no, astrology does not recognize those. Only the 9... err 8 planets and one dwarf planet, plus the Sun and the Moon.

What about before the discovery of Uranus, Neptune and Pluto? What did astrologers do, before the discovery of those objects? Didn't they notice that something was wrong with their calculations and natal charts? No, they did not. And that is more evidence that astrology is false. Uranus, Neptune and Pluto were discovered exactly because of their gravitational influences on the other planets. Minor gravitational wobbles allowed astronomers to calculate that there were more planets in the Solar System, to infer their positions and their mass as well.

Now, let's look at the night sky and the constellations. Imagine those constellations in 10.000 years from now (ten thousand). What do you see? If you are an astrologer, you see the exact same constellations in the exact same positions as today. If you are an astronomer, you cannot visualize the constellations.

The Sun and the stars in our galaxy orbit around the galactic centre. That means that even 2500 years ago the stars were not in the exact same positions as they are today, but have shifted, due to those motions. We cannot perceive this in our lifetimes because of the enormous distances and small velocity that both the Sun and the other stars have. The Sun needs about 225-250 thousand years to make a full orbit around the galactic centre.

Just look at Barnard's star which is a star that moves quite fast, and its movement can be seen from year to year:

Stars also have a limited lifespan. It is huge compared to a human's life, but as everything else they die. Some in huge explosions known as supernovae, some more quietly.

And so, constellations change in the night sky. Not as fast as a human's life, but slowly through the ages. Enough though, that since the time of Babylonians to today, there are perceptible changes in the night sky.
 
Conclusion

There is no force to account for the mysterious force of astrology. The Sun does not spend the same amount of time in each constellation. There are more objects in the Solar System than astrologers can and do "calculate" for. Astrology forgets the precession of the equinoxes, the actual motion of the Sun and the stars, that contribute to the constellations changing shape.

The conclusion is the same as the abstract: astrology is false.

References:

1. Plait, Phil (2002) Bad Astronomy (Chapter 21: Mars is in the Seventh House, but Venus Has Left the Building: Why Astrology Doesn't Work. pp 212-220) Wiley.
2. Sagan, Carl (1996) The Demon Haunted World: Science as a Candle in the Dark (Chapter 17: The Marriage of Skepticism and Wonder, pp 302-304) Ballantine Books, New York
3. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Astrology
4. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zodiac
5. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Barnard's_Star
6. http://www.badastronomy.com/bad/misc/astrology.html
7. http://skepdic.com/astrolgy.html
8. http://www.astrosociety.org/education/astro/act3/astrology3.html

 

[australopithecus]

 

[Master_Ghost_Knight]

Astrology is complete bonkers for a variety of reasons and there is really no way arround that. However you are more than welcome to present your case and perhaps we can clearup some of the missuderstandings you might have.

 

[RigelKentaurusA]

Marginally off topic, but during the 2006 debate as to whether Pluto is a planet, it was joked that we should make astrological predictions that include and lack consideration of Pluto to see which are more accurate, as a way to guide us to a decision as to whether Pluto should be considered a planet.

 

[Squawk]

http://qqq.squidoo.com/relationships-and-astrology

It's rude to plaigerise (change the qqq for anyone struggling)

 

[Deleted member 619]

What a pathetic thing to plagiarise! My, but the standards are slipping ! :lol:

 

[Mycernius]

Astrology science? Is that the same as creationist science, in other words, bullshit?

 

[Laurens]

Its not always cut and dried. I know most people at face value just take what they are told by Astrologers and out of textbooks and what they read online and accept it for face, but Astrology is a very complex science, but I am going to help you out by clarifying what I can for you. You may not have any experience, but I am quite sure you will be much less mystified after reading this. I am going to sort out some of the generalisms and confusions people have with this subject here in this lens!

It might be complex, but it's not complex science.

More like complex nonsense...

 

[Gnug215]

Drive by bullshitting!

Wheeeeee!

 

[RigelKentaurusA]

I'm not going to argue in favour of astrology, but on the topic of astrology and science, I've seen some astrologers make a genuine attempt at science, plotting birth dates of famous or successful people on a graph of time. Here's where the science gets bad: using far too few data points (or at worst, selectively choosing data points) and deriving conclusions from them. There's occasionally a increase in "fame/success" for some months, but nothing outside of what you would expect from statistics (roll a dice, and random chance will have some number turn up higher, for few data points).

 

[scalyblue]

Has there ever been a study into a more terrestrial way to lend a thin credence to the origin of astrological belief, like "children born during the late fall will spend their formative bonding/nursing time during the harvest and winter, and because of that will develop in a different manner than a child born in the early spring.

 

[Deleted member 619]

I'm not going to argue in favour of astrology, but on the topic of astrology and science, I've seen some astrologers make a genuine attempt at science, plotting birth dates of famous or successful people on a graph of time. Here's where the science gets bad: using far too few data points (or at worst, selectively choosing data points) and deriving conclusions from them. There's occasionally a increase in "fame/success" for some months, but nothing outside of what you would expect from statistics (roll a dice, and random chance will have some number turn up higher, for few data points).

Indeed. It should be pointed out that astrology is, at bottom, a very valid attempt at science and, more importantly, it led to the very first instances of proper science, not least because it provided the data points upon which our first real science was rooted.

Where it diverges radically from science is in its assumptions and its adherence to them. It is scientific in its gathering of data, but when it adheres to explanations of those data when those explanations are either unsupported or demonstrably not in accord with what is supported, then it is unscientific.

 

[Laurens]

Lets have a look at some of my predictions for today:

My star sign was Gemini, but since they changed it I'm Taurus, so I'll go with that to make sure I'm up to date with the latest Astrological studies

Have you ever tried staring at someone who doesn't know you're looking at them. It may be across a street or a big, busy room. Sooner or later, this person will turn around to see who is looking at them. It works every time with, for some strange reason, just one exception. If you are in a restaurant, desperate for service and the waiter is nearing the end of his (or her) shift. Otherwise, we all have eyes in the back of our heads. We are all far more sensitive than we realise. If you want someone's attention now, all you have to do is give them yours. Unless, that is, you want it just a bit too badly.

Source: http://www.cainer.com/

Ok so this one is saying if you want attention from someone give them yours - that's pretty much obvious. And it's obvious that wanting attention too badly is likely to annoy someone... That's it? Hardly a prediction about the future, it's just saying some pretty obvious things about how to behave socially...

You don't do 'resting on laurels' - which is probably just as well. A team might need a further enthusiasm fix. Something you began last year may have been stuck in a rut and now need a dose of your passion and enthusiasm. A major snag could be that you weren't paid enough in the first place. Now though, you may have found an unusual ally who's willing to barter on your behalf.

Source: http://www.horoscopes.co.uk/

This one pretty much doesn't apply to me at all, I lost my job about a month ago, so I'm not a member of any team, nor am I the kind of person who gives people an 'enthusiasm fix' - I'm quite a quiet person, and I certainly don't think that I make people particularly enthusiastic. I haven't found this ally who's willing to barter on my behalf either. As with the last one it's pretty vague, and as far as I'm concerned it's missed the mark in terms of applying to me personally, it doesn't even vaguely fit with my life at the moment...

You might hear some rather bizarre rumors today, Taurus. Someone has misinterpreted a piece of information and blown it into something far different from reality. You will need to check this out for yourself before jumping to any conclusions. Don't be afraid to pass on what you learn. It's better to nip this sort of gossip in the bud by revealing the facts than let it continue to spread

Source: http://www.horoscope.com/

Okay well I'll let you know if something like this does happen today... Although among social people this kinda thing does happen quite often. I don't feel that my friends are particularly likely to suddenly start gossiping about me today, but if they do I will post to let you know.

[UPDATE: No such event occurred today, it's now 23:53 and it's safe to say that this prediction did not come true, now, why am I not surprised?]

All of these horoscopes are pretty vague, and they all say completely different things! Mostly they appear to be a combination of advice (mainly social) and vague scenarios that probably fit with quite a broad spectrum of people regardless of their star sign.

I know what kind of response I would get from an astrologer; 'you need to go and have a proper reading!', well fuck that, I'm not dumb enough to fork out cash for something that is blatantly a load of bollocks.