Arrogance of Astrology

[atheismforthewin]

As a 5'10", 145 lb 13 year old human being on a 4,500,000,000 year old Earth of 1,083,207,317,374 km^3 in an approximately 13,750,000,000 year old and possibly infinitely expanding universe, the idea that the relative motion of astronomical bodies light years away in accordance with the movement and rotation of the Earth are all indications of whether or not I'll get laid today is cartoonishly arrogant and self serving. It is amazing to me that people will jump to conclusions light years away without the consideration of coincidence in this stupendously active universe. Those who read this that follow astrology, persuade me.

 

[mandangalo18]

good luck finding an astrologer around here.

 

[GoodKat]

I find anything that supposes knowledge without the necessary amount of investigation and reasoning to be arrogant. Billions of people think that that they are capable of knowing the origin, and even the purpose of the entire universe without any research! One of the main reasons I eschew faith for logic is because logic and evidence are objective, and not dependent on the quality of the individual making claims, but when you believe something on faith, you are in essence saying that you are intrinsically wiser than everyone who disagrees with you, which I find supremely arrogant!

 

[Xulld]

There are plenty here.

http://mingle2.com/forum/forum/195

Its a dating site so every possible idiot exists here.

 

[Master_Ghost_Knight]

Last time I remember we had an astrologer here, we scraed him so much that we have never heard of him again ever since. Good luck with that.

 

[froggyc19]

To start, I would like to say that I'm frustrated that my best resource book on astrology is currently on loan to a friend of mine >.< Also, this may end up being long, so if the subject really doesn't interest you, you might get bored

Secondly, I am far from an expert on the subject, so I may end up quoting a bit from two of my reference books and the internet to help develop a broader understanding of astrology.

Also, I will only be addressing Western Astrology (vs. Chinese Astrology) as that seemed to be what you were referring to in your initial post.

"In [the] earliest times, no division was made between astrology - divining meaning from close observation of the skies - and astronomy, the strictly scientific study of the celestial bodies. In Babylon, Arabia, India, China and Egypt, maps of the sky enabled the astronomer-priests to calculate propitious timing for affairs of state and royal marriages. Their observations were far from primitive. As the sky maps in ancient Egyptian temples show, early astrologers were aware if events in deep space far beyond the scope of all but the most modern telescope." (Hall 10)

There are many different types of astrology. The most commonly known (and most ridiculed as well) would be Sun Sign Astrology, which is what you find in newspapers and magazines. Though it's a good way to get someone interested in astrology, it's far from being accurate. There are many factors in astrology that need to be determined in order to get to a possible conclusion (I say possible, because everything is changing, all the time!).

There are several astrological disciplines;

Natal Astrology, which uses what's called a birth chart in order to give a better understanding of your own, or someone else's, personality, emotional needs or to give insight into the inner thought process. Also it helps to recognize ones strengths and weakness. It is normally used to advise in the areas of relationships and careers.

Predictive Astrology, "By observing the day-to-day movement of the planets and calculating how that movement will affect your sun-sign or natal chart, a predictive astrologer can foresee events, recognize the possibility of change and identify opportunities or blockages in your path." (Hall 13)

Counseling Astrology, When people are in crisis and seek guidance (outside of religion), they may go to see a counseling astrologer. In addition to a strong study of astrology, they (should) have qualifications as a therapist or counselor. The CA will then help identify what is called 'lifescripts' ("["¦] inbuilt unconscious expectations passed on from parents that limit life experience." {Hall 13}) You can start to reach your full potential and regain control by learning how to respond to people and events in a different way.

Synastry, The discipline of astrology that focus' on relationships and compatibility by comparing Sun and Moon signs between partners.

Medical Astrology, "The first task of a medical astrologer is to ascertain when the
illness first struck. A chart is then prepared for that moment that will uncover the underlying cause, often revealing stresses and strains, depleted energies and subtle imbalances and deficiencies. As part of a holistic course of treatment, a medical astrologer usually prescribes appropriate herbs or homeopathic remedies." (Hall 14)
Just so you know, when I'm sick, I go to a doctor. Thx lol.

Karmic (past-life) Astrology, Used to detect and bring an end to recurring patterns of negative behavior derived from past lives by utilizing astrological charts to pinpoint the credits, deficits and in-built patterns we carry from life to life (Also used to understand relationships, vocations and family life.)

Horay Astrology, To answer specific questions like, "will I get laid today?" P) A chart is prepared for the exact time the question was initiated, to which a set of "rules" is applied in order to reach an answer.

Electional Astrology, To identify propitious moments. Several dates can be drawn up then amongst those, the most favorable will be chosen.

Mundane Astrology, Concerned with world events and socioeconomic trends. Supposedly, a good Mundane Astrologer can predict the movement of stocks and shares with reliable accuracy.

Business Astrology, "Many businesses actually employ their own astrologer, in much
the same way ancient kings did. An in-house astrologer may be tasked with building personality profiles on prospective employees, predicting financial and marketing trends or giving advise on the best time to buy and sell assets." (Hall 15)

Whew"¦

OK! So, how do astrologers make all those charts? By combining three sets of data.

1. Astrodata is comprised of several different subsections;
Geocentric Framework, Astrological Circles, the Great Year, the Precession of the Equinoxes, the Symbolic Zodiac (Aries, Scorpio, etc.), and the Nodes (though most astrologers only use the nodes of the Moon, it's orbit around the earth, and eclipses.)

2. Astrological Time (GMT) and Planetary Placements by using an Ephemeris.

3. The Natal Chart (what the sky looked like at the moment of your birth). As the planets appear to move around you, you are placed at the center of your natal chart.
The components of the circular chart are;
- The Zodiac Signs
- The elements
- The qualities
- The planets and their placement
- The angles
- The houses
- The aspects
I'm not going to go into detail about this, because the post is getting long enough"¦

Hopefully this starts to give you an idea of the complexity of astrology. Whether it is something that can be relied upon, I don't know. I think that it can be used as a tool to help see things from a different perspective, but not a way to gauge every aspect of your life.

Thanks!
(>'.')> Christine <('.'<)


References:
Hall, Judy. The Astrology Bible: The Definitive Guide to the Zodiac. London: Octopus, 2005.
Struthers, Jane. The Fortune-Teller's Bible: The Definitive Guide to the Arts of Divination. New York: Sterling, 2007.

And of course, good ol' Wikipedia. Here are some links (not that you can't Google this stuff yourself ):
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ephemeris
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Astrology

 

[Ozymandyus]

The story of the Great Spaghetti Monster is also very complex. Complexity doesn't have much to do with whether something is True or not. The best part is that astrological signs, which have great significance to many readings as I understand, are off by an entire month. Because the sky has changed in the 2000 years since their formulation people are not even 'born under the sign' that their birth month dictates.

The only think I find that astrology teaches us is that our minds are extremely capable of (and susceptible to) reading meaning into things.

 

[froggyc19]

It's true that the Sun Signs (zodiac signs) are not set in their dates. It takes the Sun approximately a year to travel around the zodiac, spending about 30 days on each sign. The exact dates of ingress and egress differ from year to year due to the adjustments needed for leap year. As for them being off by a whole month, that can't be so in most western astrology (from what I've seen. By all means link or reference that info!)

Most Western Astrologers use tropical zodiak...
From Wiki: "tropical zodiac which divides the sky into twelve equal segments of 30 degrees each, beginning with the first point of Aries, the point where the line of the Earth's celestial equator and the ecliptic (the Sun's path through the sky) meet at the northern hemisphere spring equinox. Due to the precession of the equinoxes, the slow changing of the way Earth rotates in space, the zodiacal signs in this system bear no relation to the constellations of the same name but stay aligned to the months and seasons."

Tropical zodiac also makes up for the change in star location by using an equation called Ayanamsha.
"The ayanamsha describes the increasing gap between the tropical and sidereal zodiacs. The ayanamsa, changes continually through the Precession of the Equinoxes at the rate of approximately 50" a year, is currently about 24,°." -Wiki again ^.^ (... really missing my good reference book...)

If the astrologer is using sidereal (Vedic) zodiac, which references "fixed" stars, then it is based on ancient texts and charts and very well may be off by a large gap.

(>'.')> Christine <('.'<)

 

[froggyc19]

The only think I find that astrology teaches us is that our minds are extremely capable of (and susceptible to) reading meaning into things.

I don't know if that's the only thing astrology teaches us, but yes, it certainly does shine a very bright spot light onto the susceptibility our minds have to superimpose personal interpretation onto something that has an aspect of the "supernatural". Other various forms of fortune telling (tarot, psychic readings, runes, etc.) suffer from the same glitch.

Just like with most things in a person's life... we hear what we want to hear. There is no solid proof that it works, and there probably never will be, because similar to religion, it takes a certain amount of belief (or faith if you will) to accept it. That's why astrology is not a science, but a pseudoscience.

(>'.')> Christine <('.'<)

 

[Ozymandyus]

http://www.skepdic.com/astrolgy.html

Talks about the precession of the equinoxes that has changed the apparent places of the constellations at different times of year.... I do believe this is only a problem for sidereal zodiac but in any case, the idea that constellations which are completely arbitrarily assigned star grouping based on what they kind of looked like to primitive man has any influence over or indication about our personalities and fates is completely foolish and ridiculous. Hitler and Mother Theresa were born under the same sign.

Now, we have plenty of REAL knowledge about how the time you are born can affect your personality, whether it be because you are children of a generation at war, or children of the rebellions of the 60's, or the first group of children to grow up with computers, or TV, or whatever. We know these things can drastically influence our worldview. We know that if you are born in certain times of year in certain countries you are much more likely to play sports, but the reason is clear: if you are born right after the cutoff dates you will be small for your age group, and if you are born right before, you will be large. If you are big in your age group you will get moved up to the select groups, that get trained better, and face better opponents. These people will be more competitive, more aggressive perhaps. They will share many personality traits that come with being well developed for their age group. But it doesn't have anything to do with star signs. Same with school cutoff dates, except you might see 'smarter' kids at a certain time of year, that will be seen as 'gifted' and get special classes and what not.

Astrological Twin studies which looked at babies which were born within minutes of each other showed that there was no more correlation in their personalities than among other members of the population. Many Many studies have shown that astrology is completely bunk and we know the mechanisms by which some of astrology seems to be convincing, like the Forer effect.

Here's a good source for a summary of many of the studies done on astrology. None of them conclude that it is anything but psychological tricks and mumbo jumbo.
http://www.ias.ac.in/currsci/jun252009/1568.pdf

 

[Pulsar]

Due to the precession of the equinoxes, the slow changing of the way Earth rotates in space, the zodiacal signs in this system bear no relation to the constellations of the same name but stay aligned to the months and seasons.

That takes away the 'astro' part of astrology, doesn't it?

 

[IBSpify]

It's true that the Sun Signs (zodiac signs) are not set in their dates. It takes the Sun approximately a year to travel around the zodiac, spending about 30 days on each sign. The exact dates of ingress and egress differ from year to year due to the adjustments needed for leap year. As for them being off by a whole month, that can't be so in most western astrology (from what I've seen. By all means link or reference that info!)

Your Data is wrong, while the speed in which the earth orbits the sun is constant the actual sizes of the constellations is not, therefor it takes only a couple days for the sun to pass the smaller constellations and much longer for some of the larger ones. Also there is a 13 constellation which the astrologers ignore.

in actuality the signs are closer to these dates (this is circa 2000 C.E. so it's off a bit due to the fact that they change)

Aries - April 19 - May 13 (25 days)

Taurus - May 14 - June 19 (37 days)

Gemini - June 20 - July 20 (31 days)

Cancer - July 21 - August 9 (20 days)

Leo - August 10 - September 15 (37 days)

Virgo - September 16 - October 30 (45 days)

Libra - October 31 - November 22 (23 days)

Scorpio - November 23 - November 29 (7 days)

Ophiuchus - November 30 - December 17 (18 days)

Sagittarius - December 18 - January 18 (32 days)

Capricorn - January 19 - February 15 (28 days)

Aquarius - February 16 - March 11 (24-25 days leap year and all)

Pisces - March 12 - April 18 (38 days)

What I'm saying is that the dates aren't off by whole months because of the change in the sky, but because Astrologers decided to turn 13 periods of time of differing lengths into 12 periods of equal length, the result is that the dates are wrong more then they are right, in the year 2000 out of 366 days the "tropical zodiac" was correct all of 36 days or so

 

[froggyc19]

Thank you for clarifying IBSpify. After looking it up online, I find it very frustrating how, though apparently many astrologers are aware of it, they basically turn a blind eye. Why? Laziness? Fear of change? Whatever the reason, it is unacceptable to me. I'm curious to see if my primary reference book even mentions Ophiuchus.

Apparently Sidereal astrology does incorperate Ophiuchus into their calculations.

Well, fortunately I only view astrology as something fun and interesting (though finding out about the 13th sign puts a major damper on it). I knew it was a flawed system, just didn't know how badly lol.

Thanks for bringing it to my attention. (Also to Ozymandyus who mentioned it vaguely originally)

Hitler and Mother Theresa were born under the same sign.

Unless they were born at the exact same time, their natal charts will be different, therefore so would their respective personalities.

This was the point I was trying to make in my first post. Most people over-simplify astrology. Every scorpio will be different, though they will have similar traits, they will be different due to the other various components that make up a natal chart.

(>'.')> Christine <('.'<)

 

[ladiesman391]

Unless they were born at the exact same time, their natal charts will be different, therefore so would their respective personalities.

Unless they are the exact same person, going through the exact same experiences, at the exact same time in the exact same place with the exact same name, and so and so forth, it's pretty damn likely their personalties will be different, I wouldn't worry too much about someone's natal chart.

 

[Ozymandyus]

Not that it matters as this seems mostly settled, but I wouldn't say that most people over-simplify Astrology - It over-simplifies itself. The most popular forms of astrology is the very broad star sign quackery stuff, which does not take birth time into account at all(not that it is any more accurate when it DOES take that stuff into account). There are plenty of people who read their horoscopes and take them very seriously. There are also many people who read information about their birth sign and seem to think it really captures their personality.

I just don't understand why ANYONE thinks that pieces of sky sectioned off by vague shapes that we decided to call constellations could have Any meaning at all, much less worth a multi billion dollar industry. I should make up my own quacky psuedoscience ... maybe cloudology - where people look up at the sky on the day we were born and try to find shapes in the clouds and interpret them into our life story. Ah, who am I kidding, I'm sure such nuttiness already exists.

 

[froggyc19]

LOL!

That would be called Aeromancy (also known as Nephelomancy.) http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aeromancy

hehehe just thought I'd let you know I highly doubt there is anything out there that doesn't have some sort of fortune telling linked to it.

(>'.')> Christine <('.'<)

 

[e2iPi]

LOL!

That would be called Aeromancy (also known as Nephelomancy.) http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aeromancy

hehehe just thought I'd let you know I highly doubt there is anything out there that doesn't have some sort of fortune telling linked to it.

(>'.')> Christine <('.'<)

Wow, that's a new one for me. Doesn't surprise me, though. We as a species seem to be fascinated with the possibility of divining the future. Seems like we want our free will taken away, maybe because it absolves us of any responsibility for our actions.

-1

 

[Frenceawarded]

I have a few words about astrology. So I want to learn horoscopes, for that I am look for astrology guide. Thanks for your post. I learned something from here.

I have a question to you guys who knows astrology well. Is there any significance to the December 31st?

Andiferous Edit: Link removed. Especially for first posts, we try to make sure purpose is not to advertise.

 

[nasher168]

Is there any significance to the December 31st?

It is new years eve and you may well get drunk on that day.

 

[RichardMNixon]

As the sky maps in ancient Egyptian temples show, early astrologers were aware if events in deep space far beyond the scope of all but the most modern telescope." (Hall 10)

And yet they didn't know Jupiter had moons? BS. Some ancient cultures had sophisticated mathematics to predict the celestial events they could see. They didn't know about things they couldn't see.

As someone else said, complexity doesn't make something right. Would an astrologer's predictions be any more accurate if they did it while wearing a diver's helmet, balancing on a rubber ball and juggling bowling pins? It's all a load of gibberish. It doesn't matter how much gibberish you put in, you'll still get gibberish out.