Argument with an atheist

[nasher168]

I'm not....

And don't you forget it! :evil:

I'm derailing the thread. I'll stop before my competence as a moderator gets called into question :?

 

[Welshidiot]

I'm derailing the thread. I'll stop before my competence as a moderator gets called into question :?

Too late....

 

[ImprobableJoe]

Ooooh kinky

Not so much... he keeps twisting and using his safe word. :lol:

 

[Prolescum]

*Blushes*

 

[nasher168]

:shock:

I thought we agreed never to mention that evening again!

You're dead to me, Joe. Dead.

 

[ImprobableJoe]

:shock:

I thought we agreed never to mention that evening again!

You're dead to me, Joe. Dead.

Yeah, you say that now. But who else will throw sliced pepperoni at you and call you a right-wing piece of filth while you're tied to a tree and dressed as Jessica Rabbit?

 

[nasher168]

I... honestly can't think of any response to that. :lol:

 

[DukeTwicep]

....I don't believe most parents know what's best for the children, but perhaps we could educate them about that. If that fails, then perhaps children should be brought up in collectives instead,....

Here's an idea,.....why don't we send parents to "re-education" camps, and at the same time we could send their children to "anti-indoctrination" camps?

That'd kill two birds with one stone. What do you think DukeTwicep?

Wow, you really are close minded to ideas aren't you? It's not like I said that would be the best solution. But perhaps you've got a grand theory on how to best educate children, please share it with me so I can condescend you and trash it.
Do you always judge people on beforehand and are you always such a douche? Are you also so alienated from mature discussions that you can't even insert your own points of view, you can only trample others ideas when you feel you have the right to?
Let's see, perhaps we should send you to a correctional facility that could teach you some manners and shut you up when you need to keep your trap closed. Oh wait, those doesn't exist, and I wanted to create them. Not.

It's easy to act childish. The question is, are you prepared to contribute? Are you prepared to be constructive and act like a decent human being? If not, then perhaps you're no more than what Bill Hicks would say, a waste of flesh.

Welcome to the forums, DukeTwicep.

An important thing to know: Prolescum, Welshidiot and ImprobableJoe are the assholes of the forums. Their posts are frequently blunt, terse, both or all three.
But their posts are very rarely if ever trolling and their points are, more often than not, entirely valid. And probably worth listening to.

We've all been on the receiving ends of their harsh posts at one point or another (although I think I've only had ImprobableJoe personally...), just role with it, respond as best you can and concede when you are defeated.

Alright, I'll remember that. Still, I will respond with the same condescension, sarcasm and hostility that I feel has been directed toward me. I hope that's not a problem.


If anyone else has something constructive to say, that would be appreciated. Of course it's OK to point out my errors. Prolescum points out that British people are like him generally (by stating I can't have met many), I doubt that as I have met many fine British people whom I have had constructive discussions and debates with. But perhaps he's talking about the youth, that's generally the case in the modern world countries. You don't have to go far to find an arse hole in the youth. It might be too much to ask for mature discussions with youth, but one can at least try. Alas, I won't tolerate uncalled for hostility and condescension. I don't believe it should be encouraged as it's uncivil and immature, but most important, it's destructive.

 

[australopithecus]

Wow, you really are close minded to ideas aren't you? It's not like I said that would be the best solution. But perhaps you've got a grand theory on how to best educate children, please share it with me so I can condescend you and trash it.

Here's an idea, how about we provide them with knowledge via some sort of school system, then as they get older we increase the level of knowledge we give them, then we let them make up their own minds on the subject?

Do you always judge people on beforehand and are you always such a douche? Are you also so alienated from mature discussions that you can't even insert your own points of view, you can only trample others ideas when you feel you have the right to?

Joe, Prole and Welsh have been having a mature discussion. They calmly and concisely gave their rebuttals to your argument. You're the one who is now throwing toys out of the pram. As for condescension, your attitude towards your friends opinion was entirely condescending, specifically this post:

Yes, I was quite upset and angry with his opinion that religion should be excused and that it's not something that needs to be dealt with. But I decided it wasn't worth to continue arguing with him as he's an atheist and then that's pretty pointless. He also seemed pretty convinced.

We were talking about Islam and how violent it is. He responded that the Bible is as violent as the Quran, I didn't think so.

Anyway, it seemed to me like he was a bit too forgiving, probably because he has so many religious friends. I couldn't believe that he actually said that religion can't make psychopaths and that it's not a source of much immorality that we have to, again, deal with it. He thinks that we should let them be and let them believe what they want, and that people will always try to use it for bad.

I also thought that it was a little weird to think that it's a tool to teach people principles and morals. It seems that he thinks that without religion you can't have a society, which is bullshit in my opinion.

I also reacted to that he thought that if you take away the religions the world will be pretty much the same. I mean... wow. That's a bold claim based on that he thinks that people are like this and people will wage wars and justify these things even without religion.

Stones, glass houses, etc.

Alright, I'll remember that. Still, I will respond with the same condescension, sarcasm and hostility that I feel has been directed toward me. I hope that's not a problem.

...and that's completely fine. So as everyone obeys the forum rules there will be no problem and I wont have to destroy anyone.

 

[Thomas Doubting]

This looks familiar :lol:
There seem to be many people who don't see some of the problems that "too much religion" (especially the 2 of the most common sort) not only can, but definitely brings, at least in barely or non-secular countries, problems which arise due to ruthless brain washing of children and spreading of nonsense, intolerance and even violence through religion, by people who justify their actions with "god's words" and acting "by god's will". Especially the extreme cases who take their books a bit too literally and think their duty is to accelerate armageddon and/or unite all mankind under their specific religion and drag moderate people into their "godly games", which happen to lead to wars in some cases.

Oh course humans are stupid anyway and tend to cause problems of all kind.. but in my opinion that is just one more reason to try to "educate religion out of their heads".
I have to point out that in my opinion they are of course free to believe what they want as long as they don't use it to force their will onto others.. but that is exactly what they are doing, not necessarily on the world around them, but on people who are dependent on them directly (poor defenseless children) whose human rights i see violated through religious brain washing and stamps like baptism, circumcision etc and social pressure which keeps them tightly bound to their religion.

They all however help the religious authorities to do all sorts of stupid things by shoving money up their butts (like build mega churches and hell houses, teach people to not use condoms etc etc)

I also definitely don't see baseless irrational beliefs justified which at some point were (and sometimes still are) brought to people by wars and violence, and still spread like a virus through implanting of fairy tales into people's heads presented as facts, threats of eternal torment, backed up by empty promisses of eternal orgasms. The biggest problem i see is the abuse of the authority over children, by teaching them to blindly believe some old books rather than reading new ones which could help them in this life (that we know exists for sure) and often even tell them to ignore knowledge which people obtained through hard work and dedication, which help us feed the world and make our lives more enjoyable.
I see many problems with religions that i am pretty sure would get better without them.

I will probably get more shit for saying things like this again but i wanted to say it anyway, just to show that you are not alone with your opinion, at least partially, although i have to admit that at the first look what you said looked a bit too radical for my taste :mrgreen:
I however honestly believe that broad humanistic secularism (or was it secular humanism? whatever :roll: ) would lead to a better humanity in the long run, better education and less violence and more tolerance etc.
I also believe that "pseudo objective morality" aka bullshit, pre-set by ancient people in barbaric times, does not really bring structure and balance to people. Instead of teaching them to fear God, i find it better to teach them to really think about their behavior and people around them. I seriously doubt that thinking "what would Jesus do" or "what would Muhammad do" or checking in their books loaded with incoherent contradictive crap, or asking their ministers or imams or whatever, leads to a better morality, less conflicts and less inhumane and inacceptable behavior, sometimes it seems to be the exact opposite.

Unfortunately i don't see any way to undo or improve the bad things i see about (a huge share of) religions without trying to force my will on other people and creating more conflicts.. so i have to hope that science, education and time will do the job in the long run, if not for me then for following generations.
But for now i have to say i am glad i live in a world where one (in most places) won't get punished or even killed for not sharing some ancient superstitious belief and where religions are "suffering" some form of restraints unlike back in time where they kept the whole world in shackles.

 

[Prolescum]

If anyone else has something constructive to say, that would be appreciated.

...and by constructive you mean hold the same view as yourself and back you up, I presume.

Of course it's OK to point out my errors.

Clearly it isn't. Even your friend received the harsh end of your wrath for simply stating rationally that "I don't think religion can make people psychopaths" (true) or "Of course some people use religion to start wars, if there was no religion they'd use some other excuse, because war isn't really about religion at all, it's about resources, and power, and that's not going to change any time soon" (also true).

You seem a little deluded about your own position, mate. You're not the only one, there are plenty of atheists who think that because they don't believe in gods, they must be right about everything. Of course, I try to disabuse them of that bullshit as best I can. preferably with as much candour and wit as I can muster.
Being an atheist doesn't give you moral character, doesn't make you rational, doesn't make you smarter, doesn't make you reasonable by default... the list of things it doesn't do is almost infinite. That you responded only to the manner of my retort (and not the points) shows just how irrational and unreasonable you can be.

I know it hurts to read this, but take it on board. It will benefit you. And re-read my posts as if I'm talking to someone else, that might help you see a little more clearly.

Prolescum points out that British people are like him generally (by stating I can't have met many), I doubt that as I have met many fine British people whom I have had constructive discussions and debates with.

As long as they agreed with you no doubt. I didn't say that British people are generally like me, I alluded to condescension, sarcasm, irony and bluntness being well known British character traits, albeit probably a little obliquely.

See, you have to actually read my posts to understand them. Put simply, I don't view the world in the black and white manner you seem to.

Remember, you started this thread because you were pissed off at your friend for being reasonable...

Yes, I was quite upset and angry with his opinion

Very mature, that. Very constructive.

Want some more examples? Of course, this is to illustrate a point but I guess if it makes you look like a bit of a fool it's immature, right? If you call it immature, you can ignore it. The level of maturity required to use this technique in a conversation is, well, zero. Well done, Mr Grown-up.

We were talking about Islam and how violent it is. He responded that the Bible is as violent as the Quran, I didn't think so.

Anyway, it seemed to me like he was a bit too forgiving, probably because he has so many religious friends.

Take a long, hard look at that quote.









Look at it again.














How about this one?

I also reacted to that he thought that if you take away the religions the world will be pretty much the same. I mean... wow. That's a bold claim based on that he thinks that people are like this and people will wage wars and justify these things even without religion.

You see it yet?

I won't even go into your plans for removing children from their parents and stuffing them in gulags ghettos education camps...

But perhaps he's talking about the youth, that's generally the case in the modern world countries. You don't have to go far to find an arse hole in the youth. It might be too much to ask for mature discussions with youth, but one can at least try.

I am not a child, nor am I talking about them. I'm well educated and have an acute sense of the absurd. Were you to actually respond to the criticisms instead of bewailing like a baby, you might have garnered some respect. Currently, you're on the whaaaaa trajectory whilst proclaiming the maturely moral high ground. Can you see the irony there?

You talk about maturity and mature discussions, but as soon as someone disagrees you have a hissy fit? When the best you can do is bitch about how people point out flaws in your argument, and you resort to calling them "immature", "hostile" and other sundry fingers-in-ears defense mechanisms, you lose the ability to refer to yourself as mature.

Alas, I won't tolerate uncalled for hostility and condescension.

No one is being hostile, you're just upset that your view is not widely held. The condescension, well, that's just for emphasis. A mature person would have ignored it and discussed the valid points. Funny, that.

I don't believe it should be encouraged as it's uncivil and immature, but most important, it's destructive.

...and suggesting we take children from their parents and inculcate them with your views isn't destructive? Moaning about the manner in which your ideas are confronted is mature? Enforcing your beliefs on others is civil?

Give me a fucking break.

 

[Laurens]

Thank you for asking. I'm sorry that I articulated myself in a bad way, after all I'm not from an English speaking country and thus my vocabulary is somewhat limited (I use the online dictionaries frequently though).

No worries.

Like I told prolescum. My idea of "dealing with" religion is to educate people, and giving them the tools to create sound morals and world views. The education in the world is very much lacking in this area, and only a few have been given the chance to be as free in mind as many are here.
It's also about getting rid of the bad label that Atheism has around the world. It's about a lot of other things as well, but it's not about getting rid of religious people by forcing beliefs on them or killing them. I think it's more about safeguarding the future of those children that hasn't been indoctrinated yet, for those that already believe are often lost causes, and if not, they will find their way. This is the reason for the Atheist experience I've assumed, to break free those that already falter in their faith.

My first issue is with this "giving them the tools to create sound morals and world views" - there is an unstated assumption here that religious people have unsound morals and world views, and that they require the "tools" to fix this. My contention would be that the majority of religious people have pretty sound moral standards - most of them are as decent as you and I. Secondly you're not very clear on what you mean by 'world view', what is it about religious world views that make them unsound?

I agree that education is important and needs to be improved, but what outcome do you wish to see coming from an improved education? For all kids to leave school as atheists? I'd say that indoctrinating children into atheism would be as bad as indoctrinating them into a particular religion. What we should do is educate them as best we can, and allow them to make their own decisions, if they learn all about evolution, for example, and still decide to disregard it in favour of creationism, then that is their choice. I think we need to educate people how to think for themselves, but that doesn't necessarily mean educating them to be atheist.

How do you safeguard the future of children who haven't been indoctrinated yet? If their parents are going to bring them up in a particular religion, how would you stop that? I know you say education, but that won't really solve it - kids would likely follow what their parents tell them over what their teachers tell them. So how would you safeguard them? Remove them from their parents?

I believe that religious beliefs are harmful and people should be prevented from having them if they do not have them, for their own good. The state does this with other things, so why not with religious beliefs? The people in Sweden think that Nazi (as an example) are bad and the government tries to keep them away from the reach of teenagers that would perhaps otherwise be lured into these groups. Why not do the same with religion? Why can't the state try to keep children away from religious institutions and teaching until they reach adulthood? I don't believe that's bad, I believe that the state should do everything in it's power to safeguard the people from what's harmful, but of course not to hinder them if they really want to, only keep it at a safe distance and letting people choose for themselves.

So you're saying that an atheist should be prevented from having the freedom to decide to become religious if they want to? 'Sorry you're not allowed to make your own decisions, its for your own good...'

Are you trying to equate religious belief to Nazism? Nazis are a hate group, religions aren't.

If the state implemented such legislation there would be a public outcry and there would be opposition from religious institutions and parents. It's hard to imagine that such legislation would work. How would you enforce it? Throw parents in jail for taking their kids to church with them? I'm sorry but I think keeping children away from religious institutions is a ridiculous and impossible idea.

How is religion harmful? Why should the state protect its citizens from doing harmful things anyway? Getting on a bus is potentially harmful, cutting vegetables is potentially harmful, doing practicals in chemistry is potentially harmful... What makes you think the state should intervene even if you can show that religion is harmful?

Not allowing people to go to church isn't really allowing them to choose for themselves is it?

 

[ImprobableJoe]

Joe, Prole and Welsh have been having a mature discussion. They calmly and concisely gave their rebuttals to your argument.

Actually, I haven't. I've been outing one of nasher's less-offensive fetishes. I'm going to start in on the mature bit of the conversation now.

For instance, this:

It's also about getting rid of the bad label that Atheism has around the world. It's about a lot of other things as well, but it's not about getting rid of religious people by forcing beliefs on them or killing them.

is contradicted by this:

I think it's more about safeguarding the future of those children that hasn't been indoctrinated yet, for those that already believe are often lost causes, and if not, they will find their way. This is the reason for the Atheist experience I've assumed, to break free those that already falter in their faith.

I believe that religious beliefs are harmful and people should be prevented from having them if they do not have them, for their own good. The state does this with other things, so why not with religious beliefs? The people in Sweden think that Nazi (as an example) are bad and the government tries to keep them away from the reach of teenagers that would perhaps otherwise be lured into these groups. Why not do the same with religion? Why can't the state try to keep children away from religious institutions and teaching until they reach adulthood? I don't believe that's bad, I believe that the state should do everything in it's power to safeguard the people from what's harmful, but of course not to hinder them if they really want to, only keep it at a safe distance and letting people choose for themselves.

Really? You want people to think more highly of atheism, and you don't want to force beliefs on people. You just want to interfere with a fundamental aspect of the relationship between parents and their children, in order to prevent children being exposed to ideas you disagree with. And you want to use the power of the state to enforce your viewpoint on others, in direct violation of the religious freedom and privacy rights of those families. Do you plan on having hidden cameras in people's homes, to ensure that no one prays in front of their children? Do you plan on enlisting snitches to rat out their friends and family members who practice their religion in the presence of minors? How long should someone go to jail for contributing to the religious education of a minor? I guess public Bible and Koran burning will follow, or maybe just collect them up and lock them in the shuttered churches and mosques, since any exposure to religion is child abuse.

And if this is remotely successful, what's next? Banning political opinions that you disagree with? After all, you've already built a totalitarian police state where thought crimes are punishable by law. You might as well use it to get everything you want. Make sure you execute people for saying bad things about atheism... after all, creating a positive view of atheism is your goal, right? No easier way than publicly crucifying a few thousand people to make sure everyone only says positive things all the time.

 

[australopithecus]

Oh course humans are stupid anyway and tend to cause problems of all kind.. but in my opinion that is just one more reason to try to "educate religion out of their heads".

You can't "educate religion out", it's not a matter of education, it's matter of opinion. You can be the most educated man in the world and still believe in gods, that's why faith is so pervasive. Education can only inform about demonstrable facts, it can't over ride faith by default.

I have to point out that in my opinion they are of course free to believe what they want as long as they don't use it to force their will onto others.. but that is exactly what they are doing, not necessarily on the world around them, but on people who are dependent on them directly (poor defenseless children) whose human rights i see violated through religious brain washing and stamps like baptism, circumcision etc and social pressure which keeps them tightly bound to their religion.

Who are 'they' and what evidence do you have for this sweeping generalisation? Also, I was raised a Catholic, and I take offense at the implication that i was brainwashed. I was most certainly not.

 

[Thomas Doubting]

Well we can teach children that evolution is a fact, that sexuality is not a matter of preference or demons or whatever.. that people of other religions are as much human as they are and not (more) mislead and doomed to rot in hell, that people from other religions and "infidels" shouldn't be frowned upon or isolated, that the claims in the holy books are not more plausible than the stories in 1001 night or the Grimm Brothers' fairy tale collection etc.

What evidence i have for brain washing?
The world.
I never said that all do it but it is a social concept in many countries and communities, people are clearly isolated (at least) if they don't roll with the fairy tale reality and going to churches/mosques etc, prayers (like 5 times per day in Islam) prayers before they get food, provoking various consequences if you refuse it. Learning parts of the fairy tales by heart to please parents etc. I definitely consider "strong" form of religious indoctrination as brain washing and if you shake it off,
the religious concept can turn very unpleasant for people who reject it or refuse to stick to certain parts.
In more extreme cases apostates and even "soft" believers are subject to mockery, mobbing etc. In worst cases to violence and even murder. They are not free to drink alcohol and date girlfriends (especially boyfriends) even adults above 18/21, etc etc.
I am glad to hear it is not the case for you or people around you, but it is the sad reality for way too many people, to really see how (in)tolerant people are when their kids and friends abandon religion one would have to test it on a large scale.
I can not prove it. Can you prove that people don't do that and that they are not forcing their belief upon their children by threats of eternal torment and tuck them into conforting promises of eternal pleasure?

 

[australopithecus]

Well we can teach children that evolution is a fact, that sexuality is not a matter of preference or demons or whatever.. that people of other religions are as much human as they are and not (more) mislead and doomed to rot in hell, that people from other religions and "infidels" shouldn't be frowned upon or isolated, that the claims in the holy books are not more plausible than the stories in 1001 night or the Grimm Brothers' fairy tale collection etc.

And I'm pretty sure most people, religious or not, would agree with everything you've said.

 

[Thomas Doubting]

Well we can teach children that evolution is a fact, that sexuality is not a matter of preference or demons or whatever.. that people of other religions are as much human as they are and not (more) mislead and doomed to rot in hell, that people from other religions and "infidels" shouldn't be frowned upon or isolated, that the claims in the holy books are not more plausible than the stories in 1001 night or the Grimm Brothers' fairy tale collection etc.

And I'm pretty sure most people, religious or not, would agree with everything you've said.

Most people where?
over 90% muslims worldwide do not believe that evolution happened/happens.
there are 36 islamic countries where homosexuality is prohibited by law, in 10 of those punished by death.
Pedophilia and arranged marriages socially accepted concepts due to scriptures.
Some communities (not only islamic ones) mistreat or even expell their members if they speak up against any of the teachings. That is not 1 out of 500 people but can be like.. a huge share, due to social pressure and fundamentalist religious authorities.
Contraception, abortion and certain medical researches etc are being fought by some religious authorities, resulting in more poverty and diseases.. just a part of what is financed with religious tax money, sometimes it is also wars that are financed by tax payers in the name of God.

Sharia laws are spreading more and more throughout the world, sneaking their ways into even secular countries. Might be a matter of time before they start enforcing the laws which are socially unacceptable there as well (cutting off noses hands etc).
Religious intolerance, inequity, rejection of science, fighting and hindering of education, domestic violence etc are facts.. not for all or most religious people, thankfully, and of course such things happen all over the world regardless on belief or disbelief, but religions, due to parts of the scriptural doctrine, give people reasons to do it although they otherwise maybe would not do it. They often do it because it is considered "Word of God" and there is that claim about eternal punishment or pleasure.. giving additional motivation.
Which is the reason for why most of the people i ever asked, believe what they believe.
I often even heard about atheists still being plagued by such thoughts because they were implanted deep into their heads in a very vulnerable phase, by people they trust the most and learn most of the things from as kids.
How can i not consider that abuse of authority, brain washing and causing psychological damage?

Then the books.. You actually have to teach the people (kids) NOT to do and believe all the books say in order to be toleran, non violent etc.
Pedophilia and arranged marriages socially accepted concepts due to scriptures.
Some countries/communities are taking the things more literally, some less, however i consider those books to be a ticking bomb (as we can see, sometimes it is even the literal ticking bomb) and something that has been fucking up humanistic and scientific progress for long enough.. and an excuse for all kinds of atrocities and the worst behavior that we humans have in ourselves.
There are also studies suggesting that the importance of religion in a country has a big influence on the education and intelligence of the people, the more important the religion is/the less secular the state is - the less intelligent (on an iq scale) and poorly educated the people seem to be.

Unfortunately, aside from waiting for science, education and time to "lower the importance of religion and raise the acceptance of actual reality" worldwide, i don't see a way to change it reasonably and peacefully so i can only rant about it.. and get chastised for putting myself in the wrong light :lol:

 

[nasher168]

I would suggest that those differences are for historical reasons rather than religious. The European (coincidentally Christian) west built a technological civilisation first and reaped the social benefits earlier. As a result, other societies (coincidentally Muslim) can look backwards by our standards.

 

[australopithecus]

over 90% muslims worldwide do not believe that evolution happened/happens.

Evidence?

there are 36 islamic countries where homosexuality is prohibited by law, in 10 of those punished by death.

Governments don't necessarily represent the views of the population.

Pedophilia and arranged marriages socially accepted concepts due to scriptures.

Evidence for paedophilia?
Arranged marriages aren't negatives in and of themselves. I know people who have had arranges marriages, and they're perfectly happy.

Some communities (not only islamic ones) mistreat or even expell their members if they speak up against any of the teachings

Evidence?

Contraception, abortion and certain medical researches etc are being fought by some religious authorities, resulting in more poverty and diseases.. just a part of what is financed with religious tax money, sometimes it is also wars that are financed by tax payers in the name of God.

Religious authorities don't necessarily represent the majority of the adherents they share faith with.

Sharia laws are spreading more and more throughout the world, sneaking their ways into even secular countries.

Evidence?

Might be a matter of time before they start enforcing the laws which are socially unacceptable there as well (cutting off noses hands etc).

Speculation.

Religious intolerance, inequity, rejection of science, fighting and hindering of education, domestic violence etc are facts.. not for all or most religious people, thankfully, and of course such things happen all over the world regardless on belief or disbelief, but religions, due to parts of the scriptural doctrine, give people reasons to do it although they otherwise maybe would not do it.

True, but not all theists are fundamentalists.

Forgive me not addressing the rest of your post, but I'm trying to keep the post to a minimum. If you want me to address any specific then please point it out and I'll be happy to do so.

 

[Thomas Doubting]

over 90% muslims worldwide do not believe that evolution happened/happens.

Evidence?

Damn, can't find the actual research, i cleaned my favs.. however,

newsodrome
wikiislam

I live in a fairly secular islamic country.. i can tell you that most of the people i know will laugh at you if you tell them that we evolved alongside today's monkeys, even a good share of the younger, properly educated ones.
They will learn it and parrot it for school grades, but not believe it.
Most people are only considered real believers if they simply accept that if the Qur'an says GODDIDIT then he did it no matter what you show or tell them.. If you can't find some rectally extracted apology for anything in the book, you are a bad muslim :roll: If they fail to believe something they call it "hardness in the heart" or something along the lines, (there is an arabic term that i always forget), if that happens, you drop on your knees and chant some verses until you "fix it".

there are 36 islamic countries where homosexuality is prohibited by law, in 10 of those punished by death.

Governments don't necessarily represent the views of the population.

True, but they enforce the laws, and the mob mentality sucks balls

Evidence for paedophilia?

want a picture of my grandma's sister's wedding when she was 12 and married a 40+ year old man?
In our country it is prohibited by law in meantime, but in provinces and in barely or non-secular islamic countries it is the sad truth, the daughters are practically being sold for few cows or some money and/or social status etc.
It's in the book.. the prophet did it, the book says (91 times) that the prophet is the perfect example of a man, how can it be wrong?

Well i won't crunch the pages now, i have none of my old "religious favorites"
Read what the wiki says and you might understand the mentality behind it.
Contemporary pedophilic Islamic marriages

Arranged marriages aren't negatives in and of themselves. I know people who have had arranges marriages, and they're perfectly happy.

Yeah that sounds like a good story, but what with the ones who aren't? Are they really free anyway?
Also arranged marriages are not all the same, to some you have to agree, to some nobody asks you.
The book says that you are the boss and the woman is stupid and has to obey, if she as much as shows signs of disobediance they can punish them (up to beatings, for which they have "how to beat your wife - guides" in their scriptures).
The women can't work if they're not allowed to, they can't study if they're not allowed to, not even get a proper basic education in extreme cases. They can't secure an independent existence, they may be allowed to ask for a divorce if they are not happy with the man, need witnesses (twice as many women as men, in some cases it might be allowed) but what can she do after losing her virginity? Maybe having kids, no job and no proper education etc, family "disgraced".. most of them just take pretty much anything with no buts, even the fact that they might be one of 4 women and a modern slave in "their own" house.

Some communities (not only islamic ones) mistreat or even expell their members if they speak up against any of the teachings

Evidence?

This is the first one that comes to mind..

Contraception, abortion and certain medical researches etc are being fought by some religious authorities, resulting in more poverty and diseases.. just a part of what is financed with religious tax money, sometimes it is also wars that are financed by tax payers in the name of God.

Religious authorities don't necessarily represent the majority of the adherents they share faith with.

that may be true, but they use their money to do whatever they have in plan. Like.. building Hell Houses, sending missionaries to teach people to burn witches etc.. Taking donations to spread religious propaganda instead of helping the ones they collected for properly, build huge expensive churches/mosques for mass brain washing sessions etc.

Sharia laws are spreading more and more throughout the world, sneaking their ways into even secular countries.

Evidence?

Quite naive.. i thought that is well known. They tried to push it through in our country recently.. and that is not the last thing we heard about it by far.
That is the ultimate goal in Islam, "bring peace to the world" actually means convert everybody and spread the sharia everywhere, it only depends on how literally the people in charge take it and what they do about it.

here few examples:
Britain
Canada and Britain
Germany
Australia
etc etc etc
often starts "under the table" and also promoting polygamy and pedophilia.

You might want to see this one, it sums it up pretty well.

Might be a matter of time before they start enforcing the laws which are socially unacceptable there as well (cutting off noses hands etc).

Speculation.

Lets hope so, reality speaks for itself. Honor killings etc are sometimes daily news, often a result of illegally enforced shariah laws.

Religious intolerance, inequity, rejection of science, fighting and hindering of education, domestic violence etc are facts.. not for all or most religious people, thankfully, and of course such things happen all over the world regardless on belief or disbelief, but religions, due to parts of the scriptural doctrine, give people reasons to do it although they otherwise maybe would not do it.

True, but not all theists are fundamentalists.

Forgive me not addressing the rest of your post, but I'm trying to keep the post to a minimum. If you want me to address any specific then please point it out and I'll be happy to do so.

Yeah i am glad to agree that they are not, but history shows how few fundies are often enough to set things in motion.. My country (Bosnia) is a bloody example for that, happened not too long ago (not even 20 years)
Just like "good old biblical times" with rape, genocide etc, the modern version with land mines polluting mountains and forests for the next 40-50 years, thousands of heads smashed with hammers, mass graves with hundreds of people being found once in a while, often burried alive.. etc.
The religious tensions (penis measuring) between Christians and Muslims here won't let the country even start to properly recover for over 15 years already.. Hitler is another example what moderates are able to do in the name of God under certain circumstance..
And many wars are being fought in the name of God, by religious nutjobs as leaders of countries who bring through their "god's will" policies and drag innocent people into their psychopatic games etc.
One of the examples that count (in my book) is George Bush's justification of the Iraq war.
I quoted him too often though so i won't do it unless requested..
And no, it is perfectly fine, you don't need to reply to all i vomit up on the forums, i sometimes use to exaggerate and i am aware of the fact that people don't like to hear generalizations on such subjects.. but the big picture is really not as harmless as many people see it..
I just hope i am not sooo far off and don't seem like a totally ignorant deluded fucktard when i present "my case" :lol: