I realise that is what it "means", but I question how it is attained.hackenslash said:red said:If it's possible to known something, an omnipotent entity will know it.
Omnipotence is not a natural sense that I can rationalise.
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I realise that is what it "means", but I question how it is attained.hackenslash said:red said:If it's possible to known something, an omnipotent entity will know it.
And I am omnipotent, so I have the power to change what you thought you knew.surreptitious57 said:Once I become omniscient I know where the car went so the question is academicred said:So how did you know about where the car went before you knew there was a car
red said:I realise that is what it "means", but I question how it is attained.
Omnipotence is not a natural sense that I can rationalise.
red said:And I am omnipotent, so I have the power to change what you thought you knew.
I guess to some extent we were talking generically, but it probably makes no difference.Dragan Glas said:As such, the Creator knows everything since it's all occurring NOW.
Thus, the Creator knows what "choices" you're going to make tomorrow (your future, His PRESENT) - this has nothing to do with the Creator actually controlling what "choices" you're going to make tomorrow.
I should have made this point clear when I spoke of the need to subsume omnipotence into omniscience - it was the only way it worked in my brain at that time. But the word paradox was not on my radar, so in future I will try to think a bit deeper about the whys - so many thanks as always..hackenslash said:red said:And here we run into the perennial problem of the existence of mutually exclusive attributes. If you can change what an omniscient entity knows, it isn't omniscient (and never was). If you can't, you're not omnipotent. The two simply cannot coexist without leading to paradox.
How does one instantiate brute fact into a logical fallacy?hackenslash said:red said:It isn't attained, it simply is. For an omniscient entity, the state of having all knowledge is simply brute fact.
red said:How does one instantiate brute fact into a logical fallacy?
The ancient operating system in my brain is going into meltdown.
red said:I should have made this point clear when I spoke of the need to subsume omnipotence into omniscience - it was the only way it worked in my brain at that time. But the word paradox was not on my radar, so in future I will try to think a bit deeper about the whys - so many thanks as always..
I thought omnipotence was logically fallacious. If so, then is it able to have the property of a brute fact?hackenslash said:red said:How does one instantiate brute fact into a logical fallacy?
Not sure I understand the question.
red said:I thought omnipotence was logically fallacious.
If so, then is it able to have the property of a brute fact?
No because your omnipotence does not and can not invalidate my omnisciencered said:And I am omnipotent so I have the power to change what you thought you knewsurreptitious57 said:Once I become omniscient I know where the car went so the question is academic
surreptitious57 said:the mental and physical do not overlap
surreptitious57 said:I knew you would object to it but if one conflates the two exclusively within the context of this particular thread then it makes the arguments less sound in my completely humble opinion.
But were this about other subject matter instead such as consciousness for example then I would almost certainly not think of the mental and physical as being mutually exclusive.
Now I strongly suspect you shall dismiss all of this as total bollocks though it is the best I can offer so apologies if it disappoints
I thought it was about metaphysics. Consciousness to me references the working of the human brain and as we are dealinghackenslash said:And the problem there is that this topic IS about consciousness
surreptitious57 said:I thought it was about metaphysics.
Consciousness to me references the working of the human brain
and as we are dealing with concepts here which are evidently non human then I fail to see the connection.
Less you are stretching the definition of what you actually mean by consciousness.
I suppose it could be about that from a completely hypothetical perspective. But that is way beyond the standard usage of the definition as is generally employed. So I am sticking with metaphysics myself
Human consciousness is discussed far more within the disciplines of science and philosophy than any other type and for very obvious reasonshackenslash said:That suggests that only humans are conscious which is just plain sillysurreptitious57 said:Consciousness to me references the working of the human brain
If I am omnipotent then I do have that power, or there is no omnipotence: There can be nothing beyond my realm in terms of powers.surreptitious57 said:No because your omnipotence does not and can not invalidate my omniscience
surreptitious57 said:Human consciousness is discussed far more within the disciplines of science and philosophy than any other type and for very obvious reasons
I can communicate to other humans what I am thinking and they to me in a way that other species simply cannot.
We are the only species that can think in incredibly abstract terms.
So even if one rejects hubris we would still be studying our own consciousness over that of other species
In humans the percentage of the brain that is the pre frontal cortex that references abstract thinking and problem solving is thirty three per cent
of total brain mass. In chimpanzees our closest cousins in the animal kingdom with whom we have over ninety eight per cent DNA compatibility
that figure is just seventeen per cent. And it is that that fundamentally separates us both from them and all other species. Now if seven hundred
monkeys typed for seven hundred years one of them could indeed produce the complete works of Shakespeare but it would have no idea it had
When the pathologist Thomas Harvey sawed open Einsteins skull he discovered that his brain mass was unspectacularly average for a man of his
age. However his pre frontal cortex was a very significant fifteen per cent larger than average. I suspect that abstract thinkers like philosophers and
mathematicians have large ones as well. It is that more than any other part of our brain which makes us unique with regard to our cognitive capability